Chat #19 - Jennifer McGrew
"Everything humanity does is really for the puppets"
This interview is free to read. Paid subscriptions support artist honoraria.
Jennifer McGrew works as a costume and production designer. She designs, fabricates, produces and consults for events, attractions, stage productions, commercials, films, television, fashion & tech items, websites and literary projects.
She also works as an alpha reader and content editor, reading and responding to scripts, editing books, researching unusual topics, plus she makes résumés and websites for friends and other artists. Sometimes she engages in journalism. Her interests converge all over the place and she finds everything fascinating. Currently she is helping a long-time artistic colleague create a new book about runes.
10/12/2025, 20:16 - Finbarre: Jennifer McGrew, costume and production designer extraordinaire, thank you for joining me across the Atlantic on Tarot DMs! How are you this chilly day?
10/12/2025, 20:16 - Jennifer McGrew: Thank you, Finbarre it’s a delight to be with you-
10/12/2025, 20:17 - Finbarre: Remind me Jennifer, where in the US are you today?
10/12/2025, 20:17 - Jennifer McGrew: Well, it’s an undisclosed location- haha just kidding:) I’m in the Salt Lake City Utah area
10/12/2025, 20:18 - Jennifer McGrew: It must be past 8pm now for you there!
10/12/2025, 20:19 - Finbarre: Salt Lake Ci... wait, I know *very* little about that part of the world. Other than, one of my favourite TV series - BIG LOVE! So good I have seen the whole thing twice and the Beach Boys track of God Only Knows still makes my eyes misty.
10/12/2025, 20:21 - Jennifer McGrew: Yes, love the drama of that program. Though not knowing any actual polygamous families myself, it seems like a great ‘what if’ adventure series. As in ‘what if’ a guy had multiple wives in a modern era and they had to keep it all under wraps. I like it.
10/12/2025, 20:22 - Jennifer McGrew: The opening segment is marvelous, isn’t it. That music, the ice skating, the crack in the ice!
10/12/2025, 20:22 - Finbarre: Chloë Sevigny was the absolute star of the show for me, adored it! Speaking of dancing, is it true you have worked on everything… between B-movies and ballet?
10/12/2025, 20:23 - Jennifer McGrew: Yes. Even side circuit professional wrestling costumes.
10/12/2025, 20:23 - Finbarre: WHAT
10/12/2025, 20:23 - Jennifer McGrew: Livin’ la vida loca
10/12/2025, 20:23 - Finbarre: Could you describe one of them? What on earth did that look like?
10/12/2025, 20:25 - Jennifer McGrew: Quite skimpy briefs, stretchy lycra, with sparkly initials and a monogram. Handsome fellah. Wish I still had a pic but probably would have to dig. I learned SO much about the sport and performance of wrestling during that time.
10/12/2025, 20:26 - Finbarre: The last time I saw pro wrestling was back in the early 90s, so if isn’t The Undertaker or Randy Savage I know nothing.
On the face of what you wrote, that sounds like the outfit to quite a different party but moving on... we have so many stories I know and we haven’t explored your first card yet!
10/12/2025, 20:26 - Finbarre: First into the ring is...
10/12/2025, 20:26 - Finbarre:
10/12/2025, 20:27 - Jennifer McGrew: Love it. Looks like she’s bursting through a portal while thinking, “tah dah!” You’ll have to fill me in on tarot card meanings, k? My education has some holes in it. And what deck is this?
10/12/2025, 20:27 - Finbarre: Christina Ricci’s Cat Full of Spiders deck there on a plate I bought today in a thrift store
10/12/2025, 20:28 - Jennifer McGrew: Wait a sec, actress Christina Ricci???
10/12/2025, 20:28 - Finbarre: Every card is her in form or fashion, it’s really rather surreal
10/12/2025, 20:28 - Jennifer McGrew: That is a fantastic product for an actress like her to get behind- I’ll need to get my hands on this
10/12/2025, 20:29 - Jennifer McGrew: So... the world. Tell me more!
10/12/2025, 20:30 - Finbarre: It’s the last card of the Major Arcana so it marks a moment of culmination, fulfilment. The individual in the centre of this card, whether Christina herself or the classic fool from the Rider Waite Smith deck has passed through all the lessons of the other cards. It is a card of broad horizons and connection.
10/12/2025, 20:33 - Jennifer McGrew: Well I do feel very fulfilled in getting to chat with you here- when I saw your call for artists and our ilk, I thought I’d better reach out and find out more about what you’re doing. My guess is that artists are more amenable to talking about metaphor, simile, and mysticism than, say, math or physics people? And how does one know when there’s culmination of something?
10/12/2025, 20:37 - Finbarre: I would say that interesting people love discovering more about interesting people... so creatives often experience the world a little differently in the most fascinating ways! Although many scientists I know (the ones that have ventured into peculiar paths of research, probably with wicked laughs and tesla coils in their basement) are wonderful too. Would you believe it that I’m a big fan of destiny too, so asking strangers to come on Tarot DMs is endlessly intriguing to me!
10/12/2025, 20:37 - Finbarre: I have thought of your question - what tells you when the creative project you are working on is complete?
10/12/2025, 20:38 - Jennifer McGrew: To me, it’s fascinating that you’re an IT guy (I looked you up at length). Your job is all about making systems talk to one another, creating reliable communications. Would this be correct?
10/12/2025, 20:39 - Finbarre: Absolutely! I think of tarot as being my analogue AI 😎
10/12/2025, 20:40 - Jennifer McGrew: Oh - easy answer. Back in the days of writing papers on literature or theory, I’d long heard the expression that “your paper looks like a snapshot of all the books and notes all open and askew on your desk right before you need to hand your work in”. Same with costumes to some degree. Most (client ones anyway) have deadlines, and they are finished usually right by the deadline with little time to spare.
10/12/2025, 20:42 - Jennifer McGrew: Three cheers for analogue AI! I think it’s why I like to work with my hands so much, there’s a logic to the processes of working with materials and objects. It’s oddly soothing yet stressful at the same time (esp when it’s a client project with a deadline).
10/12/2025, 20:44 - Jennifer McGrew: Here’s a pic of one recently, just finished by its deadline...
10/12/2025, 20:45 - Jennifer McGrew:
10/12/2025, 20:45 - Finbarre: Protein Pete has seen some sights! When it comes to crafting something with your hands and eyes, is there a moment of sensation when the garment is completed or the set looks perfect? It is a skill I wish I had so I’m curious about what must be like, it can’t simply be a checklist box ticked?
10/12/2025, 20:46 - Finbarre: I noticed the blur by the hands there, whoever was in that costume was So Very Excited!
10/12/2025, 20:49 - Jennifer McGrew: For others, who consider themselves artists (making their own work and following their own path), their work is ‘done’ when they think it’s done. I’ve also seen many artists ‘overdo’ their work (they don’t know when to quit- and I have many essays I’ve abandoned over the years like this). Because I rarely make art for myself, I think of myself more as an ‘artisan’. I always have a checklist. I’m always workin’ for the man. When all the boxes are checked off- the project is ready to release to the client.
10/12/2025, 20:49 - Jennifer McGrew: Yes! Their ‘Protein Pete’ performer in there was SO energetic. My guess is he’s in his early 20s.
10/12/2025, 20:51 - Jennifer McGrew: I *might* make some art of my very own this holiday season (I’m taking some time off)... So maybe that is culmination?
10/12/2025, 20:51 - Finbarre: What do you have in mind?
10/12/2025, 20:52 - Jennifer McGrew: Not certain. All I know is I don’t want any disturbances or anyone looking over my shoulder. Probably some *giant* puppets. Maybe.
10/12/2025, 20:53 - Finbarre: *Probably* some giant puppets. Flip a coin, y’know.
10/12/2025, 20:53 - Jennifer McGrew: Seems as though the art of interpretation is very artistic, as in when you explore Tarot with others--would this be right?
10/12/2025, 20:55 - Jennifer McGrew: Yes. Giant puppets. The sort I always wanted to get to as a youngster. Just for fun. So ....culmination maybe? I’ll keep you posted on any progress. Maybe what I need most is just a long winter’s nap.
10/12/2025, 20:56 - Jennifer McGrew:
10/12/2025, 20:56 - Jennifer McGrew: Here’s lookin at you, kid-
10/12/2025, 20:58 - Jennifer McGrew: Oh, and I really like how many of your interview subjects have shared their PET photos with you, so here’s one of these two fellows
10/12/2025, 20:58 - Jennifer McGrew:
10/12/2025, 20:58 - Finbarre: Very much so, all artists tell stories through the medium of whatever it is they create. I like to pen the occasional poem, so summarizing the symbolism in any card comes easy with them being so exquisitely rich in detail when performing a reading. From there the new poem seeks meaning and that is where sharing what was seen becomes magical.
10/12/2025, 20:59 - Finbarre: Tell me at once, who are these fabulous beasties?
10/12/2025, 21:00 - Jennifer McGrew: Dentu on the left. Glen on the right.
10/12/2025, 21:01 - Finbarre: The pins near the eyes make it look like the creature from Hellraiser and a taco spawned a lovechild
10/12/2025, 21:01 - Jennifer McGrew: Ok, so poems, ay? My colleague (I’m helping him write a book on runes right now) is going to write a poem for each rune, in first person. Interesting.
10/12/2025, 21:01 - Finbarre: Dentu is almost about to blep.
10/12/2025, 21:03 - Jennifer McGrew: His approach will be a lot like Bilbo and Gollum’s riddles- in which some of the mysterious items or objects ‘describe’ themselves, making the listener guess who/what they are. Are your poems about tarot cards like that too?
10/12/2025, 21:06 - Finbarre: I like that very much, I haven’t plucked a rune from a pouch for a long time and if memory serves the Elder Futhark has 24 in total - it has only just occurred to me that is one for every hour of the day. The way you mention the objects describing themselves is spot on. Never the same way twice either and each one having the meaning changed, just a little, by the one before and after too.
10/12/2025, 21:06 - Jennifer McGrew: Ok and so another question about culmination of those cards and the World being the last/final one... Does the cycle/sequence go in a linear fashion and then does the process repeat itself once someone’s had all the lessons of all the prior cards?
10/12/2025, 21:08 - Jennifer McGrew: Ok cool, 24 runes in the Elder F and 24 hours in a day- I need to tell him this for sure!
10/12/2025, 21:09 - Finbarre: Let me know when the book comes out as it sounds very much like something I need on my shelves! With the tarot the process isn’t linear, it is best thought of as cyclical, leading towards another spiral staircase of growth. The Fool always has more to learn, to discover and to dance towards.
10/12/2025, 21:11 - Finbarre: Speaking of which, your second card awaits and it could be anything! I have removed two from the deck - your first and third card. The second one, the Wild Card is the one we’ll draw in a moment.
10/12/2025, 21:11 - Jennifer McGrew: I know he’ll be fascinated and will want to go down the rabbit hole of researching time and how it’s been recorded and kept, esp in more Paleo contexts prior to clocks, watches, etc. (he and I are both Virgos) and I’ll want to look up the concept of ‘hours’ to see when and how this first appears in world languages and texts, etc.
10/12/2025, 21:11 - Jennifer McGrew: Woooot. Love a wild card (should I be nervous?).
10/12/2025, 21:11 - Finbarre: VERY
10/12/2025, 21:12 - Jennifer McGrew: NIIIICE
10/12/2025, 21:12 - Finbarre: Probably no giant puppets in there
10/12/2025, 21:12 - Jennifer McGrew: Those have to be created from sheer grit and partial insanity
10/12/2025, 21:12 - Finbarre: I’ll shuffle them as we type and when the moment feels right, type “stop”. For good or for ill. Or for puppets.
10/12/2025, 21:13 - Jennifer McGrew: Ok. Everything humanity does is really for the puppets...
10/12/2025, 21:13 - Jennifer McGrew: Ok...and...STOP
10/12/2025, 21:13 - Finbarre: ... and we have
10/12/2025, 21:14 - Finbarre:
10/12/2025, 21:14 - Finbarre: An extremely Art Noveau looking Christina!
10/12/2025, 21:14 - Jennifer McGrew: F*&(cking get out of town. THAT’s the card I always pulled back in the mid 80s with my friends
10/12/2025, 21:15 - Jennifer McGrew: Except it was from that 007 deck
10/12/2025, 21:15 - Jennifer McGrew: Tell me about her, please
10/12/2025, 21:17 - Finbarre: That deck gives me the heebie jeebies truth be told. The characters in it are a little too surreal for my taste and seem... off. Not like this vision of loveliness. Right so the Empress. A card of creation, cultivation and life in bloom. Her energy is generous and that richness comes from the natural world. With that look in her eyes she challenges you to thrive.
10/12/2025, 21:18 - Jennifer McGrew: She is definitely lovely. I’ll take it :-) what is the significance of the second card in this three card pull?
10/12/2025, 21:21 - Finbarre: If this was a standard three card reading, the trio would be past present and future. If you want to use this to think about the here and now, that’s where The Empress would be pointing.
10/12/2025, 21:22 - Finbarre: Your second question - what does the word “abundance” mean to you as a creator?
10/12/2025, 21:24 - Jennifer McGrew: Ah, ok. Abundance I think of as my huge skill set and jazz improvisational skills when the chips are down where I’m in the flow state. Plus I have the time now, and means to do what I like pretty much. I can be picky about clients. I’m inching closer to retirement and putting up with Les b******* lets me do more of the kinds of things I like to do
10/12/2025, 21:25 - Finbarre:
Couldn’t resist getting out your old friend
10/12/2025, 21:25 - Jennifer McGrew: Those cards are definitely a bit strange and not nearly as lyrical or beautiful as the ones you’re using now
10/12/2025, 21:26 - Finbarre: I would swear that card should gave me a cold chill picking it up. Possibly cursed.
10/12/2025, 21:26 - Jennifer McGrew: Her red outfit is pretty menacing isn’t it
10/12/2025, 21:27 - Finbarre: The tiny hands too. Always a bad sign.
10/12/2025, 21:27 - Jennifer McGrew: Lol tiny hands!
10/12/2025, 21:27 - Jennifer McGrew: Ok, just saw it... is she holding THE WORLD in her tiny hand?? Chilling.
10/12/2025, 21:27 - Finbarre: When it comes to your clients, how do you decide who to work with?
10/12/2025, 21:28 - Jennifer McGrew: I like people who reach out to me. The ones who will pick up the phone and talk or at least use the contact form. It’s nice to have a conversation with someone just to get their vibe before talking business...
10/12/2025, 21:31 - Jennifer McGrew: And the commercial or corporate projects always have better budgets- so the money thing usually factors in
10/12/2025, 21:33 - Finbarre: Has something come up that has been that unexpected something you didn’t know you wanted to do until the call or form came through and then YES
10/12/2025, 21:34 - Finbarre: Apart from wrestlers, puppets and energetic protein mascots of course
10/12/2025, 21:35 - Jennifer McGrew:
My father’s (he’s 91). He wanted a wizard costume for Halloween. My life is so rich and abundant because of all the things he’s always made for us and done for us. This place is full of all the evidence. Cool items, cabinetry, machines, tools, and that he encouraged his heretical firstborn to do these things. I was never a good fit in academia or corporate cultures
10/12/2025, 21:36 - Jennifer McGrew:
10/12/2025, 21:36 - Jennifer McGrew: My rune colleague (the one who’s book we’re working on now) carved that magical wizard’s staff for him:)
10/12/2025, 21:40 - Finbarre: “Heretical firstborn” should be on a T-shirt! This is an amazing outfit and I adore the worksmanship that gone into the stick of You Shall Not Pass
10/12/2025, 21:41 - Finbarre: The sleeves are frankly fabulous
10/12/2025, 21:41 - Finbarre: You could stash Dentu in one side and Glen in the other
10/12/2025, 21:43 - Jennifer McGrew: Thank you. He really liked it. I’ll bring up the “Heretical firstborn on a t-shirt” idea. Years ago I had a t custom made for him that quoted William S, “How sharper than a serpeant’s tooth to have a thankless child” because it was something he always quoted and joked with us about
10/12/2025, 21:46 - Finbarre:
Sadly I’m not au-fait with King Lear (studied it as a teen and none of it went in) but I did see the episode of Star Trek The Animated Series though. Which is almost the same.
10/12/2025, 21:47 - Jennifer McGrew: You’re so ahead of me on this - I’ll see if I can get this on my watch list!
10/12/2025, 21:48 - Finbarre:
It has nonsense like this in it, perfect for crappy days
10/12/2025, 21:50 - Jennifer McGrew: Dig it. He’s a bit of a Quetzalcoatl
10/12/2025, 21:50 - Finbarre: Time for your third card Jennifer, the last one that was gifted by my last guest, Lara. She is an anatomical pathology technician who (among many many things) reconstructs the deceased and she left you with this:
10/12/2025, 21:51 - Finbarre:
10/12/2025, 21:52 - Jennifer McGrew: ah, this is the ten of cups?
10/12/2025, 21:54 - Finbarre: Exactly! The reward of the emotional journey - love that’s been earned, not just found. Strong emotional bonds, whether with family, friends, or chosen community and traditionally depicted as a rainbow over a household.
10/12/2025, 21:55 - Jennifer McGrew: Hell yes. I’ll take that gladly. The future, maybe? And tell me about Lara’s contribution here- clarify maybe? And thank her for me?
10/12/2025, 21:58 - Finbarre: Lara is one of the many wonderful people I have spoken to through Tarot DMs, that I would never have had the chance to discover more about day-to-day. Her interview talks about her work (which I knew nothing about) and touches on the of the emotional and spiritual aspects of working with the dead. We also talk possibly too much about The X-Files. I most certainly will!
10/12/2025, 21:59 - Jennifer McGrew: Very cool. So did she also have this as her third card? And I will talk XFiles with you ANY time. Big fan here.
10/12/2025, 22:00 - Jennifer McGrew: I am enthusiastic about reading your conversation with her- she has a totally fascinating job
10/12/2025, 22:01 - Finbarre: This is the card she drew at the end of her interview for the next person and as it happens that lucky person is Jennifer McGrew! I have a small and growing list of the X-Files episodes I need to catch up on as I have never had the pleasure. I know. Somehow lived through an era where that AND Twin Peaks were out and never saw either.
10/12/2025, 22:03 - Jennifer McGrew: Awesome that you’ve had her pull that card. Makes for a cool segue to your new subject. Please give her my regards. My mother passed in August and we’ve all been through a lot. We miss her, and the mysteries of death just compound and confront me every day.
10/12/2025, 22:07 - Finbarre: I’m so sorry to hear and I’ll be messaging Lara soon to pass on your thanks. I’m glad you have this sweet card to end on as it brings the mind to the good times.
10/12/2025, 22:07 - Finbarre: Last question, what does emotional fulfilment look like for you - is it seeing your studio team thrive, watching an audience swept away by a world you helped create, or something else?
10/12/2025, 22:10 - Jennifer McGrew: All of those things. On the nose. Plus the awesome family, partner, friends and things I’ve been able to cultivate and keep close to me. Life is rich. I do like that this last card is the 10 of cups:) A good note to end on!
10/12/2025, 22:12 - Finbarre: When you have downed tools and you’re taking a rare moment to skritch the cats with your feet up, what aspect of your work do you find yourself missing and relishing coming back to?
10/12/2025, 22:16 - Jennifer McGrew: Sad addict here. I actually do thrive on the deadlines, the stress, the challenges, the client capriciousness, the completion. I get a bit restless without looming projects. But I can start all that again in January- haha. I’ve enjoyed having a bit of vacation time lately and talking to you is great- it’s super fun to reflect on life thru the lens of cards, oracle, etc.
10/12/2025, 22:17 - Jennifer McGrew: You’ve been reading tarot for many years, yes?
10/12/2025, 22:19 - Finbarre: My parents are old hippies so I have always had cards around the house, but it wasn’t until university that I discovered that reading the cards of strangers was such a delight.
10/12/2025, 22:20 - Finbarre: I stashed them away until last year but something told me it was time to take them out again. Better than doomscrolling!
10/12/2025, 22:22 - Jennifer McGrew: My rune oracle colleague also enjoys reading for strangers- he’s friendly in the mix with everyone. And he also has regular clients. Do you have quite a few ‘regulars’ as well? What do you think your impulse was that made you take those cards out again? Curious to know!
10/12/2025, 22:23 - Jennifer McGrew: You are obviously a connector. You like engaging with people on a level not captured by, say, politics, other bullshit?
10/12/2025, 22:25 - Jennifer McGrew: I’m intrigued lately by all the commentary about ‘therapy culture’ out there. And how much of our mental stress could be solved just by socializing, hanging with friends, etc. I see you as doing this with Tarot DMs, and it’s really cool.
10/12/2025, 22:26 - Finbarre: You know, these days I only use my cards for TarotDMs.com or my other related projects, never for a straight reading for now. The only classic reading I gave was earlier this year as part of a prize for a fundraiser for the charity auction raised by Lauren Beukes and Jeanette Ng but it feels more like a part of expression, connection or discovery than a side hustle. Although never say never.
10/12/2025, 22:27 - Jennifer McGrew: “expression, connection or discovery”. YES
10/12/2025, 22:27 - Finbarre: People like your good self remind me the world is awesome.
10/12/2025, 22:28 - Finbarre
10/12/2025, 22:28 - Finbarre: Speaking of which, what card will you leave for my next guest? At the moment it could be one of several so I’ll not give any spoilers.
10/12/2025, 22:30 - Jennifer McGrew: Thrilled to pull a card for the next person. How do I do this?
10/12/2025, 22:31 - Finbarre: Either draw a card randomly or pick one that feels right for the moment. The first that comes to hand or mind, then share a picture of the one you decide.
10/12/2025, 22:32 - Jennifer McGrew: Um.. at the beginning you asked if I had a deck here. Sadly I do not! I just had that one card that’s been floating around on my desk for several decades now!
10/12/2025, 22:33 - Jennifer McGrew:
10/12/2025, 22:33 - Jennifer McGrew: It’s probably too alarming for most. Plus I didn’t pull it out of a deck unseen
10/12/2025, 22:34 - Finbarre: If you’re happy for that to be your card (or the one that’s meant to be) we’ll take it but if there is another you’d like to hand to the next person you’re welcome to decide. Of course, that one *could* be interesting!
10/12/2025, 22:34 - Jennifer McGrew: Your call. Choose, but choose wisely...if you’ll use it or not for your next subject!
10/12/2025, 22:37 - Finbarre: Done and done. The gift of THE TOWER will be passed along (and genuinely it’s a good card to consider as it means you get to anticipate and prepare for trouble ahead)
10/12/2025, 22:38 - Finbarre:
10/12/2025, 22:39 - Jennifer McGrew: Sounds fine to me. I ALMOST just went to a random tarot card generator site I found. Give this card to the next person with gusto. The fact it’s survived all these years is rather metaphoric.
10/12/2025, 22:40 - Finbarre: Certainly has weathered the years for a reason my goodness
10/12/2025, 22:41 - Jennifer McGrew: Haha - yep. Or it’s the weird flotsam that’s just splashed around me for years every time I’ve moved. People are stronger than they know. Trouble makes us stronger. If we survive it. Not a bad thing to experience in life.
10/12/2025, 22:43 - Finbarre: Jennifer McGrew of McGrew Studios, it has been simply lovely speaking to you - getting to see your two gorgeous grey furfriends and hear about your work! If folks want to explore your work, the peculiar and the unconventional, where can they see your wonderful creations?
10/12/2025, 22:46 - Jennifer McGrew: Oh it’s been so fun chatting with you as well Finbarre! Much here at https://mcgrewstudios.com/ and then there’s always https://jennifermcgrew.com/ Back in the old days, we all had giant portfolios of work stored under our beds. I’m still excavating there, plus old hard drives, etc. Thank you for the very cool chat and the cool site you’ve made - it is a really fantastic idea.