Suzie Hackney is a Creative Category Lead for Gifts at Lush, where she has worked since 2008 and led the category since 2013. Her work spans creative direction, product innovation, art direction and storytelling across Lush’s gift and book ranges.

Alongside her career at Lush, Suzie is a multidisciplinary artist who recently completed an MA in Fine Art at City & Guilds of London Art School. Her practice explores humour, play and emotional storytelling through ceramics, objects and installation, drawing on personal experiences, relationships and the everyday.

Explore more of Suzie’s creative practice, artwork and projects at suziehackney.com

28/09/2026, 20:00 - Finbarre:

Welcome to Tarot DMs with Finbarre, where I use tarot cards to inspire conversations with interesting people. Today’s guest is Suzie Hackney, creative direction and category lead for Gifts at Lush.

Suzie spent years thinking about what makes a gift more than something just wrapped up in a box. How design can reduce waste, how artists behind an object can be part of its story, and how something as familiar as gift packaging can be made more inclusive. The work at Lush has included the company’s reusable knot wraps, collaborations with artists and organisations including Arthouse Unlimited, and most recently, The Lush Guide to Knot Wrap, exploring the journey from the Japanese tradition of Furoshiki, I hope I got that right, to contemporary sustainable design. But today, Suzie has no idea what I’m going to ask her, and neither do I.

But let’s find out. I’ve got my three cards here. Suzie, welcome to Tarot DMs.

28/09/2026, 20:02 - Suzie Hackney:

Hi, Finbarre. Great to speak to you. I’ve been looking forward to doing this. I’m very intrigued to see what’s going to come up as well.

28/09/2026, 20:03 - Finbarre:

Suzie, you mentioned before that you have a deck of tarot cards, which is always something I like to hear. Could you talk me through your relationship with the cards and how you became introduced to each other?

28/09/2026, 20:06 - Suzie Hackney:

So I don’t remember exactly when I got into tarot, but I remember getting into runes and started to cast runes and read them when I was around 18. And I went into an esoteric bookshop when I was at university in Winchester and I started to use them then.

And I think tarot was pretty much around the same time. And I use tarot very regularly, probably reading, having readings for myself at least once a week. And then also occasionally going to see an astrologer as well to get readings.

28/09/2026, 20:08 - Suzie Hackney:

Just to say as well that I only ever really use one deck. I do have a couple, but I get quite attached to objects. And these, I’ve had these for a minute. These are probably ones I’ve had for the longest.

These are the Aquarian Tarot, the Art Deco inspired imagery. And I use these mostly, basically. They’re the kind of go-to items.

28/09/2026, 20:09 - Finbarre:

You know, it’s funny you should mention runes, but just yesterday on eBay, I saw a set by somebody called Ralph Blum. And you could get this burgundy pouch, this lovely velvet container to keep the runes in, plus a guidebook. And it came out in about 1987. And it was my first ever set of runes.

Now, my mum once upon a time possessed this. I borrowed it long term. Long term as in it never went back. And my bag of runes disappeared as well. So I saw this on eBay and I thought I must have.

And yeah, there is something about runes where you can just be on the beach and you could just make yourself a set of 25, use them and then just leave them for the water. There’s something wonderfully sort of elemental and primal about runes.

28/09/2026, 20:10 - Finbarre:

Again, this is uncanny because at the moment I’m on the search for an original Aquarian Tarot deck. I think they came out in the 70s and I would love to own a set of those. I mean, you can get them now. I think they’re about £70, £80 for a decent set. So you’re doing right to hang on to those.

I’ll be asking you to draw one a little bit later. But in the meantime, we will be using a guest deck, which is the Bad Witch Tarot by Michelle Lodge. These ones have a bit of a saucy burlesque flavour. They’re very fun.

And your first card will be the anchor card, which is the one that everyone this month will have received. So we’re starting from rock bottom. We’re starting with the Tower.

28/09/2026, 20:11 - Suzie Hackney:

Yeah, it’s funny you should say that because I have exactly the same set, the ones from Ralph Blum. And my nan actually got them for me for my 18th birthday. So I feel like they’re part of my ancestry now.

And I also have made sets before as well, gathering pebbles on the beach. So I’m totally with you. They’ve got that real sort of primal feel about them.

28/09/2026, 20:12 - TOWER TIME ⚡

28/09/2026, 20:13 - Finbarre:

How does this interpretation of the Tower weigh up against the ones you’re more familiar with?

28/09/2026, 20:14 - Suzie Hackney:

These are cool. They kind of remind me a bit of, I just watched the new Beetlejuice film again the other day. So they’ve got that sort of Tim Burton silhouette-esque kind of things going on and also maybe a bit of Rocky Horror Show as well. Yeah, really fun.

28/09/2026, 20:17 - Finbarre:

Suzie, as it happens, you’ve just mentioned two of my very favourite films. And it just so happens I have the Rocky Horror tarot deck to reveal to the world. And hopefully the guests will be open-minded enough to appreciate that. It’ll also be a nice way of remembering one of my favourite actors that passed recently.

So let’s think of a Tower question for you. Tell me about a creative project that has gone wrong in the best of ways.

28/09/2026, 20:21 - Suzie Hackney: Just thinking on this one...

28/09/2026, 20:22 - Finbarre: Take your time. The Tower never demands easy answers.

28/09/2026, 20:22 - Suzie Hackney:

This one’s tricky because I think all creative projects go wrong in some way or another. And it is kind of a process of then the thing going wrong and then working through it, correcting it in a way.

28/09/2026, 20:24 - Suzie Hackney:

Like there’s one that I can remember at university when I was in a friend of mine’s final piece and he sort of picked me because I had a sort of improvisation style. I could learn moves, to the dance degree. I could learn moves, but I had a sort of improvisation, a way of improvising that he liked. I’ve still got the card that he gave me at the end and saying something like, you know “All the mistakes that you’ve made actually made the piece.”

So I think sometimes the imperfection of things works out better in the end.

28/09/2026, 20:26 - Suzie Hackney:

And then I think with current projects at the moment, with a work project, for example, when something doesn’t quite work out or when a design doesn’t quite work out how you’d like it to, there’s that process of reimagining and rethinking something that creates more clarity in the process. Even though a quick win is sometimes quite helpful, actually, we learn more when we have to go back and relook at something and think, actually, how can we make that better? Or how do we want that to really come across? So I quite like that process, even though sometimes it can be a bit painful. It’s actually quite helpful.

28/09/2026, 20:28 - Finbarre:

As you were speaking, I was looking at this variation of the Tower card, and it occurred to me that this person isn’t seeing the lightning strike behind them, but they can hear it. And you mentioned about the dancing.

So as a quick follow-up, I’d love to know what music to you is like sonic catnip. What is it that you hear that you can’t resist but move to?

28/09/2026, 20:31 - Suzie Hackney:

So that’s quite easy. That’s definitely drum and bass and jungle. I was quite obsessed with it when I was about 16, 17. And yeah, went to a lot of clubs at uni that played that as well. And every time I hear it now, I just go straight back to those days, basically.

28/09/2026, 20:32 - Suzie Hackney:

So like more specifically, there’s an artist at the moment, Nia Archives. And yeah, whenever I hear her music, that’s definitely the catnip for me right now. I absolutely love her.

28/09/2026, 20:34 - Finbarre:

I’ll be taking a listen to that and I’ll make sure that my kids don’t catch me desk dancing. We’re up to card number two.

This is the Wild card. This could be anything at all. I’ve got your deck of cards here and shuffling it as we speak. So there are two cards we can’t draw here. Those would be the anchor card and the gift card that was given to you.

But otherwise, it could be anything. We could go from the Tower to something even worse, maybe. Although the odds are in your favour.

Say stop when you’re ready. We’ll see what it is.

28/09/2026, 20:34 - Suzie Hackney:

Stop!

28/09/2026, 20:36 - Finbarre: No-one ever goes “Yay! Swords!” but here we are…

28/09/2026, 20:38 - Finbarre:

I’m finding this one very curious as there’s a natural path of progression from this card to the Gift card that you were given. This is a card of recovery and contemplation. It’s a retreat, often a spiritual retreat, but it can also be a card of returning to something too soon.

It could be a card of restlessness.

28/09/2026, 20:39 - Finbarre:

I think if we’re looking at runes, this would be a combination of the one that looks a bit like an “I”, which is the ice rune. I’ve never really mastered the Nordic pronunciation of the stones, but the other one that this would be a combination of would be the rune of protection.

28/09/2026, 20:40 - Finbarre:

This card would like to ask about your best ideas. Are they when you’re working or when you’ve stopped?

28/09/2026, 20:41 - Suzie Hackney:

This is a very interesting card to come up. And it’s, yeah, the timing is quite good. I mean, I am moving house and at the same time trying to find balance for my art, in my creative art practice after finishing my master’s last year. So I’ve got, there’s quite a lot going on and I’m trying to kind of juggle probably too many things and have too many expectations of what I can manage at the same time. As well as obviously with all of the work that I’m doing with Lush as well.

So there’s quite a lot, there’s quite a lot that’s going on right now. So this is quite an interesting one.

28/09/2026, 20:45 - Suzie Hackney:

Saying that as well, though, it’s an exciting time because I am excited about putting a lot of that creativity into my house. And having that sort of vessel for this other form of creativity.

So I think it’s sort of not narrowing that down to being in a certain place at a certain time and actually having this art-filled life is kind of my aspiration, essentially, how I want to live. So I’m kind of moving towards that.

28/09/2026, 20:46 - Suzie Hackney:

In terms of best ideas it’s never when I’m sitting at a desk looking at a computer it’s always right before I go to sleep. I’m one of those people who has to have a notepad right by their bed just in case you think of something and you worry you’re not going to remember it when you wake up and… has like lists and lists and lists of things on their phone for when like I’m out walking I try and walk mostly every day and not have something that I’m listening. To just allow myself the space to kind of look at things and allow myself just to think.

28/09/2026, 20:46 - Suzie Hackney:

Sometimes actually not even to think, just to allow space. I think that’s when best ideas can come in, when I allow myself that sort of headspace.

28/09/2026, 20:49 - Finbarre:

I’m absolutely with you on that last point. I work in IT myself and being surrounded by screens and technology and distractions and all the wonderful ways that you can not allow yourself to be in your own head. It’s incredible how refreshing and revitalizing it can be when you don’t have that low level stimulation of a screen or headphones or you’re just there with your thoughts and your own movement.

Right, we’ve got card number three, the gift card. This is a present from Elizabeth Sulis Kim, who was the writer of The Book of Beasts. And you’ll see why this card connects to the last one.

28/09/2026, 20:49 - Finbarre:

28/09/2026, 20:50 - Finbarre: Reminds me, I need to ask my mother-in-law VERY nicely to make me a winter cloak

28/09/2026, 20:52 - Suzie Hackney:

Yeah, this definitely links. I can see the progression here. And I’ve been feeling that I need to probably hibernate a little bit, actually. So yeah, this has come up. This is sort of also maybe a little bit obvious in a way. It’s like, oh, yeah, of course, I need this to kind of, yeah, hide away and sort of hibernate for a little while, I suppose.

28/09/2026, 20:52 - Suzie Hackney:

And it is that season. I feel like me moving in autumn is perfect. You know, the timing couldn’t be better, really.

28/09/2026, 20:54 - Finbarre:

Perhaps perfectly timed with hot spiced mulled drinks and maybe some fruit crumbles as well.

A Hermit question would be something like creative direction. Okay. Creative direction is highly collaborative, working with your team.

And I’m guessing that creating art outside of work hours is intensely personal. What was the last great discovery you made when working alone?

28/09/2026, 21:00 - Suzie Hackney:

I think the greatest discovery that I found when working on my own is time. And let me expand.

28/09/2026, 21:01 - Finbarre: Makes sense given that the card is traditionally linked to Saturn

28/09/2026, 21:01 - Suzie Hackney:

The time aspect, I suppose, is that when I’m in the studio and I’m working on a project on my own, time has a different essence to it. Whereas with work, things have to be done in a certain time frame. You’re around different people who are working on different time frames and there’s all those different things kind of coming together.

28/09/2026, 21:02 - Suzie Hackney:

When I’m in the studio or I’m working on my own and my own practice, there’s a whole different relationship with time. I kind of get lost in that movement between the brain and the hands. And it’s a whole other different relationship with time.

28/09/2026, 21:05 - Suzie Hackney:

Because at the moment, for example, I’m working with clay a lot and it has this kind of ancestral, very historical feel around it. Because obviously it’s a material that we’ve been using and working with for hundreds of thousands of years.

28/09/2026, 21:06 - Suzie Hackney:

So there’s something very grounding about that, which is a big discovery for me at the moment. And I think that’s a wonderful balance between sort of some of the more technological aspects of my life or everyone’s lives, I suppose. But that’s why I’m really falling in love with that material at the moment.

28/09/2026, 21:08 - Finbarre:

Me and clay don’t know each other very well. My wife, however, was working with the scouts recently to create these clay faces that the kids were attaching to various trees to make them look like something from Lord of the Rings.

Thinking about clay historically, it’s been used in everything from, you know, cooking pots to, I imagine, little bits of jewelry to urns that you would hold the ashes of the dead in. What is it you’re creating with clay?

28/09/2026, 21:09 - Suzie Hackney:

Firstly, those masks sound amazing. I definitely would love to see them.

28/09/2026, 21:09 - Suzie Hackney:

So at the moment, I am making these kind of like vignettes, like telling these sort of stories. They’re almost like maquettes, I suppose, for larger pieces that I might make in the future.

28/09/2026, 21:09 - Suzie Hackney:

They’re all built around stories and storytelling about my life or things that I see when I’m out. So just creating these little funny scenes, basically.

28/09/2026, 21:10 - Finbarre: I found this and it’s frankly terrifying

28/09/2026, 21:10 - Finbarre:

28/09/2026, 21:11 - Suzie Hackney: If liking that is wrong I don’t want to be right

28/09/2026, 21:11 - Suzie Hackney:

I love, or are inspired mostly by, imperfection and people’s kind of wonkiness and messiness. That’s what intrigues me. So I guess that’s what I like to sort of tap into in my work.

28/09/2026, 21:11 - Finbarre: Do you have a snap of any of your projects, or are they Top Clay Secret so far?

28/09/2026, 21:12 - Suzie Hackney:

28/09/2026, 21:12 - Suzie Hackney: This is called ‘Bad Eggs in Rome’

28/09/2026, 21:13 - Suzie Hackney: When I got really bad food poisoning on holiday once

28/09/2026, 21:13 - Suzie Hackney: And was sick in front of loads of nuns

28/09/2026, 21:14 - Finbarre: MORTIFYING. Also, your poor tum.

28/09/2026, 21:14 - Finbarre: She doesn’t look too bothered to be fair.

28/09/2026, 21:15 - Suzie Hackney: Oh yeh it was not good No they had no idea

28/09/2026, 21:16 - Finbarre: I’m sure they’ve seen far worse at their convent parties. Suzie, I realise that this is the time to grab your deck and pass on the gift of one of your cards to the next guest.

28/09/2026, 21:16 - Finbarre: Could you give them a shuffle and take a snap?

28/09/2026, 21:17 - Suzie Hackney: Oh yeh...bet they get right on it 😅

28/09/2026, 21:17 - Suzie Hackney: Yes sure

28/09/2026, 21:18 - Suzie Hackney:

28/09/2026, 21:19 - Finbarre:

I have just been visited by my youngest, and they looked quizzically at the picture on my screen.

Come over.

Hi.

What’s your first impression of the figurines that you can see on the screen there?

So what the hell is happening?

Wait, wait, should I describe it?

You can describe. What’s he doing?

That’s an orange man. No, he’s not orange. He’s just wearing orange.

And is he dropping a carton of eggs?

No, it’s maybe a plastic bag.

And there’s a nun with a concerningly big hood.

I swear she’s a grim reaper. I just can’t prove it.

And she’s walking by praying to the god of plastic bags, obviously.

And there’s a logo that looks vaguely like an upside-down mushroom.

No, it’s pointing down.

It’s probably this way upside, and the reason it’s pointing down, is because he’s turned it upside-down.

But then why the hell have a handle like that?

The reason why is because that person’s being sick in the bag.

Oh.

Yeah.

So, anyway, that’s a reaction from a 10-year-old just there.

28/09/2026, 21:21 - Suzie Hackney:

I love that reaction. So good. So good. The nuns, the grim reaper. I mean, concerningly big hood, possibly. Yes. Lovely. Thank you very much. I loved the review. It was perfect.

28/09/2026, 21:23 - Finbarre:

From the mouths of babes, as they say, I’ve been astonished how cleanly the line runs through particular cards that you’ve got today, Suzie.

So going from the Tower to the Four of Swords, the time of required rest and sanctuary to the solitude and the thought of the Hermit to then passing on contemplation in your final card, the Six of Cups runs together beautifully.

One of the many reasons why I love drawing these cards.

28/09/2026, 21:23 - Suzie Hackney: The god of plastic bags! 😅

28/09/2026, 21:25 - Suzie Hackney:

I’ve loved it. I love, I love this. The way of working out life and connecting with something like, you know, other than and I just think it’s yeah, perfect. It was brilliant. Thank you so much for inviting me. What a special thing to be invited to.

28/09/2026, 21:27 - Suzie Hackney:

Yeah, I’ve had a lot of fun and it’s been wonderful to also have the insights from that art piece as well from your 10 year old. It was perfect. So thank you so much.

28/09/2026, 21:29 - Suzie Hackney: I haven’t had as good a crit as that since I left art college ❤️😂

28/09/2026, 21:30 - Finbarre:

Our absolute pleasure. It was lovely having you. Suzie Hackney, thank you so much for joining me on Tarot DMs.

Dear listener, dear reader, you can find out more about Suzie’s work through Lush, including its gift collections and knot wraps and the Lush Guide to Knot Wrap, which is available now. And you can also see more of Suzie’s personal work at suziehackney.com. The Tarot Interviews umbrella is an independent interview project created and presented by me, Finbarre Snarey.

And if you enjoyed this conversation, you can find more episodes at tarotdms.com.

Meet more guests on Tarot DMs

Michael Shapiro is a Grammy-nominated composer and internationally renowned conductor whose work was praised by The New York Times for his “rare melodic gift.” With over 100 works spanning opera, film, and symphony, his music is regularly broadcast globally on major networks like NPR and the BBC. He is perhaps best known for his acclaimed original score for the 1931 classic film Frankenstein, which has been performed live to film in over 75 productions worldwide.

A Juilliard-trained musician, Shapiro has collaborated with world-class organizations including the Royal Philharmonic, LA Opera, and the BBC National Orchestra of Wales. Beyond his extensive guest conducting and recordings on the Naxos label, he serves as Laureate Conductor of The Chappaqua Orchestra.

Michael will conduct the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra at the London premiere of his Frankenstein score, performed live to the classic 1931 film.

• Sunday 25 October 2026, 3.30pm & 7pm

• Cadogan Hall, Chelsea, London

• Nearest Tube: Sloane Square

For full event details and tickets, visit Cadogan Hall.

03/10/2026, 16:21 - Finbarre:

Welcome to Tarot DMs with Finbarre.

In 1931, Boris Karloff’s monster came to life in Frankenstein, but without a musical score beneath him.

70 years later, composer Michael Shapiro decided that the monster deserved one.

Since then, his Frankenstein, the movie score, has travelled around the world, accompanying James Whale’s film with music that can make the creature frightening and tragic.

But Michael’s musical world stretches much further: more than 100 works across orchestra, opera, chamber music, film and song, alongside a career on the other side of the podium as a conductor.

Today, however, somebody else gets to choose the score.

We have 78 cards, 3 questions, 1 composer and possibly a monster lurking somewhere in the Major Arcana.

Michael Shapiro, welcome to Tarot DMs.

03/10/2026, 16:22 - Michael Shapiro:

So wonderful to be with you.

You know, when I wrote the score, I watched the movie repeatedly because I had to figure out in each scene, what did James Whale intend?

He was not there for me to, quote, spot, close quotes, the film, which is what you do with a director, you know, of a film.

So I had to spot it myself, which was hard.

But I must have done something right because there are now six versions.

And the London premiere is happening very shortly at Cadogan Hall, right off Sloane Square in the very beautiful neighborhood in Chelsea.

And it’s gone on to, you know, so many performances now, reaching shortly by next year, nine dozen worldwide.

The London premiere… 25 October!

03/10/2026, 16:22 - Finbarre:

Michael, before we draw the first card, which is the Anchor card and the card that every person this month after you will receive.

This has been tailored specifically to your project, and you’ll see why in a moment.

Before I draw that, I need to ask you a quick bonus question.

I only recently read, and I hate to say, this is my confession, I have only recently read Frankenstein, the book.

Can I ask, what age were you when you first read it?

03/10/2026, 16:24 - Michael Shapiro:

I believe I read Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein whilst I was in college at university in New York, at Columbia, and I’ve reread it many times since.

Of course, it is very different from the 1931 film, which was done on a completely new basis.

03/10/2026, 16:25 - Finbarre:

Speaking of the monster, he has somehow found his way into the first tarot card.

Let me present to you the Emperor.

03/10/2026, 16:25 - Finbarre:

03/10/2026, 16:26 - Michael Shapiro:

IT’S ALIVE!

03/10/2026, 16:27 - Finbarre:

I could almost hear the sound of a Tesla coil behind you as you said that.

This is a reimagining of the classic Emperor card from the Rider-Waite-Smith by Kipling West, and this came out in 1996.

What feelings do you get from this card? What does it represent to you?

03/10/2026, 16:29 - Michael Shapiro:

Well, a quick story, please.

I watched the movie on local television, what was then called the Million Dollar Movie, when I was quite young. And I remember my dad coming and seeing my brother and I watching the film, the original 1931 Boris Karloff film, of course, without a score.

And he said, “Turn it off. You’re going to have nightmares.”

“Dad, what are you talking about?”

Well, it turns out that in 1931, when my dad was 13 years old, he saw the film at the local movie house and it gave him nightmares for a week.

It didn’t give nightmares to me.

And what does the card mean to me? And what does the image mean to me?

Well, you know, children understand the Frankenstein creature, the monster. They understand how the monster is the persecuted, not the perpetrator. And this is something that our dear friend, Sara Karloff, the only child of Boris Karloff, talks about frequently.

And she’ll be with me on stage in a Q&A with Pamela Hutchinson before our performances on the 25th October, matinee and evening, at Cadogan Hall with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.

So the monster to me is a creature with a soul.

And I have a great story of my even writing Boris Karloff when I was just under 10 years old and I am sending back his autographed picture.

So when I see this, I see a friend.

03/10/2026, 16:34 - Finbarre:

I have books galore of the various interpretations of these particular cards and traditional meanings.

But when I hear interpretations like yours that evoke such a vivid story, I’m going to be picturing that next time I ever draw this card.

Thank you so much for sharing that story.

If this particular card was going to ask you a question from the meanings that I’ve heard previously from the emperor, it’s a card of reliable systems.

It’s a card of protection and it’s a card of boundaries.

This is also somebody with a power of authority.

So the question I would ask you is what has your conducting taught you about leadership?

03/10/2026, 16:37 - Michael Shapiro:

Leadership is about the participation of not only the musicians with the conductor, who must obviously lead the musicians to some sort of truth.

But what is the truth, we ask?

The truth is what’s written in the score, meaning that the score tells us what to do and how to impart it.

Everything can be done at different speeds. We call it tempos, tempi in Italian.

We can phrase things differently.

We can bring the orchestra together, or sometimes not so together if the attacks are wrong.

But a lot of it is about breath.

And breath is something we all possess. And breath is the fundamental cause and reason for life.

So one of the great loves of making music is communal breath.

And that’s what a conductor needs to do. He needs, or she needs, to have the orchestra breathe together and phrase and attack in the right rhythmic framework.

How the composer and what the composer is trying to say emotionally in that very moment.

03/10/2026, 16:40 - Finbarre:

Michael will now move from the anchor card to the Wild card.

So we’ll be going from Frankenstein to who knows where.

And in my hand, I hold the 76 cards from the deck. That could be anything.

And I’m shuffling these as we speak.

Could you say, “Stop”?

Whenever the moment feels right, I’ll pull your card out.

And destiny will select this one.

The final card that you’ll receive after this is the Gift card. And this is one that has been given to you by the previous guest.

03/10/2026, 16:41 - Michael Shapiro: Stop now.

03/10/2026, 16:42 - Finbarre:

I am so sorry.

Things are going so well.

Strangely, this card does feel appropriate for this time of year.

You, sir, have The Devil.

03/10/2026, 16:42 - Finbarre:

03/10/2026, 16:43 - Michael Shapiro:

Quite interesting that you reached the Devil card because my Archangel Piano Concerto, it’s a concerto for piano and orchestra, is all about what happened before the creation of the world, as depicted in Paradise Lost of John Milton.

It’s in two parts. The first part is the Archangel versus the Devil and what happened then.

The second part is about the wonderful love between Adam and Eve in Eden, and then the arrival of the serpent, who was really the Devil, and the closing off of Eden by the Archangel, pushing out Adam and Eve into the world we all inhabit.

This is being made into a ballet in Vancouver and hopefully in Europe soon.

So the arrival of this card is quite appropriate.

03/10/2026, 16:46 - Finbarre:

I would love to say that this is one of these cards that is often misunderstood.

I don’t think it is because it’s a card of appetites and pleasure with a cost.

It can also be a card of compulsion.

As I understand it, synchronizing 70 minutes of live orchestral music to existing film must need discipline. I can only imagine.

Did Frankenstein ever become an obsession?

And how do you resist working and working at something that is so exacting?

03/10/2026, 16:50 - Michael Shapiro:

Writing the score for Frankenstein in 2002 was for the opening of a theater close by where I live in northern Westchester, New York.

It was a theater, the Jacob Burns Film Center, affiliated with the Film Society of Lincoln Center, the Walter Reade Theater, which is quite famous in this city.

And they opened up a new theater up here.

The theater’s gone on to be a tremendous theater with activities with Ron Howard and Steven Spielberg, Jonathan Demme, and many other people.

But I wrote it for it to be performed by my orchestra that I conducted at the time with the film of 1931.

It was never an obsession.

It was always something to do, and I love to write.

I love to write dramatic music, meaning music that is tied to some sort of drama.

So my Archangel Piano Concerto, which I mentioned, which I recorded with Steven Beck as pianist, and the BBC National Orchestra of Wales, a wonderful recording that’s widely available, which will soon be a ballet.

It was never an obsession.

It was something where I get an idea, and I want to pursue it, and I work diligently all day long, all night long, always thinking about it.

Well, whilst I’m writing it.

And Frankenstein in 1931, a film that I dearly love and that the Film Society of Lincoln Center and the Jacob Burns Film Center was showing with my new score, was a revelation.

Because remember one thing that Boris Karloff did.

Henry Frankenstein ties together dead, disparate parts into a creature.

But Boris Karloff and James Whale’s movie give the creature, the monster, a soul.

So we ask ourselves, how did that happen?

So my music is all full of that.

But it’s, again, underscoring what is happening in the film at that very moment that I can amplify and make even more rich and important.

So if you call that obsession, I call it love and attention.

03/10/2026, 16:56 - Finbarre:

An adoration shared that I look very much forward to hearing in person.

The last card, the third card, the gift card, has been given to you by Susie Hackney, who is the Creative Direction and Category Lead at Lush.

And when I spoke to her, this particular card made an appearance.

Now, this would, in another deck, be known as the Six of Cups. And here, it is the Six of Ghosts.

03/10/2026, 16:56 - Finbarre:

3/10/2026, 16:58 - Michael Shapiro:

You know, I am always thinking not only of what is happening to all of us now, but I do think of the history of all of us before.

I have a connection to London.

My grandfather, Barnett, was an English gentleman before he came to the United States.

And I have a wonderful picture of him as an Edwardian gentleman of over 115, 120 years ago, dressed so beautifully during the Edwardian age.

But he was a great fan of the musical, and he brought that love of the musical to the United States and inculcated that in my father, certainly, who was a musician.

So this is all part of me.

And so when I see this card, The Six of Ghosts, I think of not only those six, but also the many people who have influenced my writing.

And when you hear the score of Frankenstein, played by the Royal Philharmonic, live to the film, after a Q&A with Sara Karloff and me, with Pamela Hutchinson leading it, you’ll be looking back.

But you’ll also be looking at what’s now in all of your lives and also what will come.

So thank you.

This has been quite wonderful.

03/10/2026, 17:01 - Finbarre:

And with that, our three cards have been played. The orchestra can finally put down its instruments, and the monster can return to the shadows.

Michael Shapiro, composer, conductor, and the man who gave Frankenstein a new musical voice. Thank you for joining me on Tarot DMs.

Film stills: Frankenstein (1931), dir. James Whale. © Universal Pictures.

Meet previous guests on Tarot DMs

Elizabeth Sulis Kim is an Edinburgh-based writer from the West Country. She is the author of The Book of Beasts: Reclaiming Animal Wisdom (Chatto & Windus) and The Art of Folklore (forthcoming in 2027 from Frances Lincoln). She is also the editor of Cunning Folk magazine and Spiritus Mundi, an anthology of occult writing (Liminal 11). Her writing has appeared in publications such as BBC Culture, Mslexia, Hellebore, Fiddler's Green, Litro, The Guardian, the LA Review of Books, Ambit, and TANK.

Read Elizabeth’s writing at elizabethsuliskim.com

23/09/2026, 19:40 - Finbarre:

Welcome to Tarot DMs with Finbarre.

Today’s guest is Elizabeth Sulis Kim, a writer and editor whose work deals with mythology, magic, animals, and those very human stories told around the world.

She’s the founding editor of Cunning Folk, an independent magazine devoted to magic and mythology, and her work has appeared everywhere from The Guardian to the BBC, The Independent, Dazed, and the LA Review of Books.

Her first book, The Book of Beasts: Reclaiming Animal Wisdom, was published by Chatto & Windus in August 2026. It travels across cultures and thousands of years of history, exploring twelve emblematic animals and asking the question: what might change if we stop thinking of animals as something separate from ourselves?

Her next book, The Art of Folklore, arrives in 2027, and she’s currently writing a novel.

So this feels like fertile territory for Tarot, with beasts and humans, instinct and intellect, magic, and the ancient world… all looking to the future.

Elizabeth Sulis Kim, welcome to Tarot DMs.

Let’s see what the cards want to ask you.

23/09/2026, 19:42 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

Thanks so much for having me, Finbarre. I’m excited. I kind of want to say nervous, but not because we’re having a chat, but because I don’t know what’s going to happen during our reading.

23/09/2026, 19:44 - Finbarre:

Well, that makes two of us because although the cards are good friends of mine, occasionally they can surprise. We’ll be using the Bad Witch Tarot deck by Michelle Lodge. These have a zesty and burlesque feel to them. And I’ll be laying those out very shortly, starting with the anchor card, the one that’s given to every single guest that I have. And we’ll see where we go from there.

But I need to ask about animals because I was just reading that you regarded family cats almost as sisters and used to rescue mice and voles and birds. Can I ask what animals are currently in your life at the moment?

23/09/2026, 19:46 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

This is such an interesting format because while you’re speaking, I’m Googling Bad Witch by Michelle Lodge.

And yeah, I’m looking at all the results on Google Images.

Tragically, at the moment, I don’t have any animals. I mean, I live with other humans. On my street in Edinburgh, we live on this quiet cul-de-sac. There are about six cats and I’ve kind of claimed them. But unfortunately, our landlord doesn’t want animals around… so we had a child instead!

Hopefully, she will not destroy the carpet as much as a cat would, which was, I think, his concern.

23/09/2026, 19:47 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

I know it’s shocking. I mean, I do have other animals in my life, but they don’t live with me.

I did grow up with lots of animals, though. I actually grew up in the West Country and we had chickens, doves, cats. I had a horse. I rescued some ducks. We lived very close to sheep and cows. We had lots of wildlife around us, hedgehogs, foxes, badgers.

23/09/2026, 19:49 - Finbarre:

The geek in me has to ask, when you have such a variety of creatures around you, do you have like a naming convention? Like, are you, I don’t know, calling all of the doves names from EastEnders? Are all the horses the cast of Coronation Street? How does it work?

23/09/2026, 19:50 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

That’s an interesting question that I’ve never really thought of before. I called my rabbits and cats quite embarrassing names when I was very small, things like Fairy Rose and Rosebud. And I definitely had two hamsters, one called Susan I and one called Susan II, who obviously followed after. The chickens definitely had names too, and so did the doves, but I think there were just too many to remember.

23/09/2026, 19:51 - Finbarre:

I can well imagine tiny you writing down all of the names of these newfound friends in something that appears to be the Domesday book.

Speaking of Domesday, your first card. It’s the Tower.

This is the one that everyone’s had this month.

The Tower card is one of collapse, calamity, a disaster that you just couldn’t have predicted, but it’s also reconstruction.

23/09/2026, 19:51 - Finbarre:

23/09/2026, 19:52 - Finbarre:

Counterintuitively in a funny old way it’s a good card to start with because things can only get better! What kind of vibes do you get from this?

23/09/2026, 19:54 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

So I’m not a huge reader of tarot myself, but I do know that the Tower is, for most people, scarier than death, which is often more symbolic or is understood as more symbolic. What do I get from the Tower? I mean, I get my associations with it rather than my kind of intuition, I suppose. You know, the sense of needing to jump ship from whatever’s going on there. Is it a fire or it’s actually the turrets falling over?

It’s interesting that a lot of people are getting this, though. I wonder if it’s not personal, but something collective that’s going on.

23/09/2026, 19:55 - Finbarre:

In these easy and halcyon days, it’s almost unthinkable that something so prominent could be there like the Tower.

Okay, I’m going to ask you a question based on the meaning of the card.

And what I would like to know is… as a writer, what was something that you believed was true that turned out not to be?

23/09/2026, 19:58 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

Are we talking research or writing process or publishing world? Something not even to do with writing at all. I just feel like this is such a big, broad question and I’m racking my brain trying to think.

23/09/2026, 20:00 - Finbarre:

I’m thinking, what’s ever caused the biggest shock, the biggest disbelief?

23/09/2026, 20:01 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

So it’s not that my writing process or research process was particularly smooth, but I don’t think anything really shocked me. I’m really trying to think, no, I don’t think so.

23/09/2026, 20:03 - Finbarre:

It shows you’re unflappable and made of stern stuff. If I was looking at, say for example, with the Book of Beasts, across the globe at different traditions and different ways of seeing the animal kingdom and how even pets could be seen through different eyes, I’m sure I’d find something in there that would surprise me. Is there anything there that, I don’t know, made you look twice at your work or your research?

23/09/2026, 20:06 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

When I went into writing this book and doing the research for it, I think I just approached it in a very open-minded, anything could happen, there could be any relationship with animals.

I mean, bear in mind, I had been kind of trawling through archives, looking at how people had related to animals in the past, where there were things like animal trials.

In one of them, a donkey was accused of a bestiality charge, and there was this whole community-wide campaign to exonerate the donkey.

The community said that the donkey was innocent, and basically a very dignified and worthy member of the community.

The judge found that the donkey was innocent, and it was the person who raped the donkey who was charged.

So, I mean, I think that knowing these types of stories exist, knowing that there have been cultures and there are cultures that, you know, view animals as capable of having moral agency, it did sort of set me on a course where I thought anything could happen.

And I think that in general with life, and I think that really helps with writing, because I do think you have to kind of go, you have to be open to strange things happening.

23/09/2026, 20:08 - Finbarre:

Before we move to the second card, I need to ask, was the donkey actually present in court?

23/09/2026, 20:09 - Finbarre: As that... is surreal!

23/09/2026, 20:10 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

In that particular example, I don’t know, but I think there was a requirement to be at court for animals.

I mean, it’s very hard sometimes to discern between popular legend and the trial records.

But there was another story of some rats failing to make the court date and then a lawyer had to advocate for them and explain why they couldn’t come.

23/09/2026, 20:11 - Finbarre:

Elizabeth, we’re on to your second card. This is your Wild card. This is one that could be any of the cards that I have from this deck, bar two. The first one that we started with and the last one that was given to you. But apart from that, anything goes. So while I’m shuffling these, say stop and we’ll see what you get.

23/09/2026, 20:12 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim: Stop!

23/09/2026, 20:13 - Finbarre:

23/09/2026, 20:13 - Finbarre:

It’s your chance to make a prediction here. What energies are you expecting?

23/09/2026, 20:14 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

It could well be cups. I often pick cups, but it probably won’t be now that I’ve said that.

23/09/2026, 20:15 - Finbarre:

You were right in that it won’t be because we have...

23/09/2026, 20:15 - Finbarre:

23/09/2026, 20:15 - Finbarre:

The Two of Swords, the card of impasse.

23/09/2026, 20:16 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim: ooh!

23/09/2026, 20:17 - Finbarre:

For this one, I’m going to have to quickly read out A.E. Waite’s original description, the chap who was one of the architects of the Rider-Waite-Smith cards.

And he said, “conformity and the equipoise which it suggests, courage, friendship, concord in a state of arms.

Another reading gives tenderness, affection, intimacy.

The suggestion of harmony and other favorable readings must be considered in a more qualified manner.

The swords generally are not symbolical of beneficent forces in human affairs.”

Well said, A.E. Waite.

So my question to you is that we divide animals up into categories.

We’ve got pets and livestock and wildlife and vermin.

What contradictions in how we view our furry four-legged friends… maybe they’ve got wings or gills. What contradictions are there that we try not to look at?

23/09/2026, 20:21 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

First, my initial immediate response when I saw the card was the conflict between this sort of overthinking mind and the mind involved in flow state, which probably speaks to where I am now, sort of wrestling between the two.

I’ll answer your question now.

23/09/2026, 20:27 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

Our categorizations of other animals are full of contradictions. They’re often quite self-serving.

So we might label one animal as an idol or God one day because it gives us something. Say we view it as, or we recognize it as integral to an ecosystem.

And then the next, we’re competing with that animal for food and we decide it’s a pest or it’s just a really cute animal and we decide that we’d like to have it stick around more.

Suddenly it’s an animal companion, it’s a pet.

I think a lot of people just have very clear categories in their minds. One animal bad, another animal good, this animal food, this animal isn’t.

But these kinds of stories quickly come apart when you show someone something that they’re not familiar with. Like if you suggest that rather than drink cow milk, you drink rat milk.

I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but there’s that sort of, there’s that Instagram account, Elwood Dogmeat. And it’s often used to sort of shock people out of their, of their thinking.

When people say that they’re shocked at something happening to a beloved animal, or rather when people don’t express grief at death of say a cow, people tend to tag this, this account.

And it’s, it’s a fake account. There isn’t really an Elwood Dogmeat.

But it’s very provocative and it challenges us to think past our human-made ideas of what animals are.

23/09/2026, 20:34 - Finbarre:

Elizabeth, I don’t know if you ever did this as you were growing up. There was a phase of all of my friends going around saying, if you’re an animal, what would you be? I’m curious, is there a particular creature that you identify with? I mean, for me, it has always been and will always be the octopus because they’re just so brilliantly strange. How about you?

23/09/2026, 20:35 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

Yes, I’m sure I was asked that as a child and I’m not sure what I answered. But I think now I would have to say a whale. And the reasons for the whale are in the book. But I did have lots of dreams in my early 20s about whales. Every so often I get them now, but not quite so persistent as they were then. Octopus is really fun. I’m guessing you watched My Octopus Teacher.

23/09/2026, 20:37 - Finbarre:

I have a confession. I haven’t seen that. I haven’t read Other Minds, The Octopus, The Sea, and Deep Origins of Consciousness by, I think it’s Peter Godfrey-Smith. And I’ve not read The Soul of an Octopus either. I’m such a bad octopus fan. Although I will watch an almost infinite number of YouTube videos where they sneak out of their tank and eat all the shrimp or spit water at lights.

23/09/2026, 20:37 - Finbarre: The scamps

23/09/2026, 20:39 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

I definitely saw one YouTube video where a guy went to a supermarket, rescued an octopus from a tank and taught it piano.

23/09/2026, 20:40 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

I’m in a freediving community here in Edinburgh and quite a few people I know dive offshore around the coast. And there are apparently lots of octopuses around.

For me, it’s a little bit cold here.

I’m mainly doing pool training and trying to freedive elsewhere. Maybe I’ll be tempted at some point because there are also seals everywhere.

23/09/2026, 20:41 - Finbarre:

There I was feeling guilty and thinking, I really need to read those books. And then you’ve just gone and distracted me again. I’ll need to watch this.

I’d love to hear what you could teach an octopus to play. I’m guessing it would be something like the guy who sounds like a French impressionist painter made music. Satie, that’s the chap.

Right. We’ve got to your third card. Sorry, I’m getting completely waylaid here.

Thinking about an octopus, possibly, you know, wearing a little dinner jacket, playing in a restaurant. Yeah, you probably wouldn’t want to run an octopus in a restaurant.

Third card time, it’s the gift card. And this was given to you by Honey Wyatt, who is the editor-in-chief and host of Sextras, which is a podcast about sex and relationships.

And you’ve got a card from her.

23/09/2026, 20:43 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim: Thank you Honey Wyatt - hope it’s a good one

23/09/2026, 20:43 - Finbarre:

23/09/2026, 20:43 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim: feels like the next beat of the story after the tower

23/09/2026, 20:44 - Finbarre:

Yeah, I’m not going to lie. I’m so glad we’re not finishing with something like the Ten of Swords.

The Knight of Wands is a card of adventure. It’s one of relocation. It’s a card of galloping and hurtling. And it’s a very exciting time. It’s one of a passionate pursuit.

23/09/2026, 20:45 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim: it definitely resonates!

23/09/2026, 20:47 - Finbarre:

In your research of the Book of Beasts, you’ll have travelled across different landscapes, you’ll have traversed distant lands. Imagine that putting a book like that together is an adventure.

At the end of it, did you discover what a beast is?

23/09/2026, 20:51 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

Yeah, I think there’s definitely some Knight of Wands energy that went into writing and researching the book. I think what’s quite interesting is that when I was a teenager, when I was a child, actually, a lot of the books that I read were those adventure novels where people go off looking for treasure or pirate novels, Treasure Island, Coral Island, Robinson Crusoe, that type of thing.

There’s both the excitement at adventure and the fear of what is awaiting them on this island. And it’s usually quite a colonial view of the world, that what lies beyond civilization is scary. But there’s also curiosity. I think that’s what a beast is. I think it’s a word for anything that we other, both within ourselves and within other animals.

It’s our human nature that we don’t want to think about or that we want to blame someone else for. And it’s also the things that we don’t understand that scare us.

23/09/2026, 20:55 - Finbarre:

An unexpected and beautiful way of describing the unknown.

Elizabeth, it’s your chance to repay the favour, to pass on a card.

Which one would you like to hand on today?

If you have a deck of cards to shuffle, if you could take a picture of one, or just think of one off the top of your head. I’ll make sure the next guest gets it.

23/09/2026, 20:58 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

Because you like octopuses :) this is from the Anima Mundi Tarot

23/09/2026, 21:00 - Finbarre:

I do very much, given how the hermit is often portrayed as being alone at night, a truth seeker following a lantern or a distant light, an octopus somewhere in the depths.

It does feel appropriate. Thank you.

And Elizabeth, thank you so much for being on Tarot DMs today.

23/09/2026, 21:03 - Elizabeth Sulis Kim:

I’m glad it resonates. And thanks so much, Finbarre, for having me on Tarot DMs.

23/09/2026, 21:04 - Finbarre:

It goes without saying thank you to you for either reading or listening to this.

It does feel appropriate that a conversation about The Book of Beasts ends with the tarot that normally involves lions and horses and birds and snakes.

And you get an entire menagerie across all of the decks that have been made.

The Book of Beasts: Reclaiming Animal Wisdom is out now. The Art of Folklore follows in March 2027.

You can also discover Elizabeth’s work through Cunning Folk, the magazine she founded exploring folklore, magic and the occult.

Elizabeth Sulis Kim, thank you for letting the tarot interview you.

Meet previous guests on Tarot DMs

Honey Wyatt is the shopping writer at HuffPost UK and the founder of Sextras podcast and magazine.

After reading this interview, be startled and delighted by this podcast and magazine about sex and relationships, with a queer focus at its core: sextrasworld.com

13/09/2026, 12:01 - Finbarre:

Welcome to Tarot DMs with Finbarre.

My guest today is Honey Wyatt, journalist, editor-in-chief and founder of Sextras, the sex-positive magazine and podcast exploring relationships in their faceted multitudes, as well as sexuality and culture.

Honey has built a career writing candidly about everything from dating and desire to boundaries, shame and sexual health. She’s also written for publications including Cosmopolitan, Men’s Health, Women’s Health and HuffPost UK.

As always, three tarot cards will decide where the conversation goes.

13/09/2026, 12:02 - Honey Wyatt:

Hey Finbarre, thank you for having me. I am excited to see where this goes. I’ve never done a tarot reading before, so yeah, look forward to talking to you.

13/09/2026, 12:04 - Finbarre:

Thank you so much for participating.

I was looking through the various tarot cards that have come through my letterbox this month, and I couldn’t resist using Bad Witch for this interview by Michelle Lodge. These Rider-Waite-Smith-alike cards are quite tongue-in-cheek, and I think have a suitable vibe for discussing Sextras.

I need to ask, Honey, when did you, or have you ever, experienced tarot symbolism, mythology or meaning? How much do you know about the cards?

13/09/2026, 12:07 - Finbarre:

13/09/2026, 12:07 - Honey Wyatt:

I actually don’t know that much about tarot. What I do know is through a friend who is very much into tarot readings and kind of anything in the spiritual world.

And, as with other people in my generation, I learned about it through social media and videos on TikTok and that kind of thing, obviously with a pinch of salt and knowing that that’s not the most accurate way of learning about them, or probably not the most accurate readings, because it’s so algorithmic.

So yeah, I don’t know too much about the symbolism.

13/09/2026, 12:11 - Finbarre: To start the ball rolling then we’re going to enter your interview with a card of misfortune, instant calamity. This card sails in like a wrecking ball and demolishes what we consider is normal. The Anchor card for September is THE TOWER

13/09/2026, 12:11 - Finbarre:

13/09/2026, 12:11 - Finbarre: Although from here, things can only get better. Is this a card you’ve seen previously?

13/09/2026, 12:11 - Honey Wyatt: It’s not one I’ve seen before!

13/09/2026, 12:13 - Finbarre:

If I was to sum this card up in a single word, it would be “rupture”.

It is a card of upheaval and revelation, collapse and shock and other words that sound like boom.

It’s also a card of a fear of change or a crisis that can be delayed.

I think if it was a song, it would be something like Cities In Dust by Siouxsie and the Banshees.

So yes, it’s a big shock.

My question to you will be...

13/09/2026, 12:14 - Honey Wyatt: Ooh I love that, that definitely rings true to my life at the moment!

13/09/2026, 12:14 - Finbarre:

That is a swing and a hit for Michelle Lodge’s deck!

Well done, her. Right. Let’s get back to your question.

Was there a particular setback or upheaval that destroyed an assumption you had about yourself… but left you better off?

13/09/2026, 12:18 - Honey Wyatt:

The one thing that comes to mind, the last setback or upheaval I had, was when I got made redundant from my job in December last year.

And even though I wouldn’t say it necessarily turned out for the best, it did force me to really think about what I wanted to do next and to try a few different things out.

I had to try being freelance for a bit. That was really tricky, and I was worried about money the whole time.

And then I ended up getting offered a job. Even though that was a great job, and I still have that job now, maybe I should have tried being freelance for a bit longer and living in the uncertain for a while.

Because I realised that I just don’t deal with uncertainty very well, even though it could have probably worked out in the long run.

13/09/2026, 12:20 - Finbarre:

Are there enough hours in the day or spoons in the pot to allow you to explore both options simultaneously?

13/09/2026, 12:21 - Honey Wyatt: I do run Sextras and freelance alongside my full time job but it’s really hard to maintain any kind of social life when I’m doing that and often I find myself getting burnt out

13/09/2026, 12:22 - Finbarre: ... and then you find yourself talking to a strange man who is holding a deck of cards at the weekend! Hopefully the next one takes us into a greener field and away from the construction site of the last one. I’m going to shuffle the cards for your Wild Card. Tell me when to stop and I’ll draw a new one for you.

13/09/2026, 12:23 - Honey Wyatt: Stop

13/09/2026, 12:24 - Finbarre:

Here’s the back...

13/09/2026, 12:24 - Finbarre:

Now the front.

13/09/2026, 12:24 - Honey Wyatt: Gorgeous!

13/09/2026, 12:25 - Finbarre:

Honey, I would love to know from your enviable position of looking upon these cards with almost an open mind, what does this one say to you?

13/09/2026, 12:27 - Honey Wyatt:

Oh, I love the illustrations on this card. On the back, well, I talk about this a lot in my podcast and my work, but obviously I’m gay and I’m in a relationship with a woman.

So that feels very sapphic to me, the illustration on the back of the card.

And then the front of the card being Temperance, I guess, is something to do with control and balance.

And like I was just saying, I think a lot of what I struggle with in life is balancing everything, including my job, my freelance work, my relationship, my friendships, and then also just time with myself.

I think recently I’ve been feeling very overwhelmed by all of my kind of duties in life and things that I feel like I should be doing.

And I haven’t had enough time for myself, so maybe it could be something to do with that.

13/09/2026, 12:30 - Finbarre:

Absolutely right, 100%.

In fact, in the words of A.E. Waite, the architect of the Rider-Waite-Smith cards, he said: “It is called Temperance fantastically, because when the rule of it obtains in our consciousness, it tempers, combines and harmonises the psychic and material natures.”

Balance, exactly as you put it.

13/09/2026, 12:31 - Finbarre:

In what sounds like the vast parts of your day involved with work, which bring the ingredients of personal storytelling and journalism and humour and getting through the day. How do you mix all of those elements together?

13/09/2026, 12:32 - Finbarre: Into a (non-alcoholic) cocktail!

13/09/2026, 12:33 - Honey Wyatt:

I have to take a lot of breaks, really take my time with things. I think journalism today is really focused on creating as fast as you can. And I really struggle to do that because I find that it’s such a creative, personal thing.

Often my job is a lot more personal and storytelling based than other roles, I guess. So it’s not as formulaic. Every story and every day kind of looks different. But yeah, it’s a lot of reflection and reading and absorbing a lot of articles and art and content from elsewhere and then trying to get that into my own work.

13/09/2026, 12:35 - Finbarre: Can you tell me about a recent piece of art or creative work that you had seen and how it has energised you?

13/09/2026, 12:36 - Finbarre: When you get that “This is why I do what I do” moment

13/09/2026, 12:39 - Honey Wyatt: A few things come to mind! I did a panel this week with Sitre, a sexual wellness brand that has just launched its first vibrator based on the shape of an oyster.

It’s so creative and different to anything else out there that it was really inspiring to see companies trying to do something different and positive in a space I love but can sometimes be quite jaded by. I also saw Teenage Sex And Death At Camp Miasma, which was so campy and self deprecating and funny, and Tony. The cinema always makes me feel reborn and inspired to create something and it allows me to switch off

13/09/2026, 12:40 - Finbarre: I am hearing a LOT about Teenage Sex And Death At Camp Miasma, apparently the music is 🤌💯

13/09/2026, 12:41 - Honey Wyatt: It’s so great, you should definitely see it if you can!

13/09/2026, 12:44 - Finbarre:

Thank you so much for the recommendation. I was tickled that this film was something that lifted your day. So this is something I’m going to have to see.

Your third card, this is the gift card, was given to you by Jill Dawson. And she recently wrote a book about Pamela Colman Smith, otherwise known as Pixie. She was the original illustrator of the tarot cards that we so often use, the Rider-Waite-Smith. And in the story, this person finds herself in the complex political world of fin de siècle media trying to get her work seen and forge a name and path for herself in life.

Jill has given you this card, and it’s the Page of Cups.

13/09/2026, 12:44 - Finbarre:

13/09/2026, 12:45 - Finbarre: Who seems rather too happy about spilling her drink. Almost the opposite of Temperance back there!

13/09/2026, 12:46 - Finbarre: While I’m thinking of this one, what is your tipple of choice if you have one?

13/09/2026, 12:47 - Honey Wyatt: Thanks for asking! I take my drinks very seriously haha. I switch between a couple, either a Negroni or a Campari Soda (not spritz, I’m not a huge fan). But if there’s an option for a seasonal drink or a special, I love trying that out too

13/09/2026, 12:48 - Finbarre:

The Page of Cups is very much a fun card. And of course, as cups represent the element of water and matters of the heart, it’s a question with a sense of wonder. What is it about love or desire still that surprises you?

13/09/2026, 12:51 - Honey Wyatt:

I think love and desire are just inherently surprising. Every person experiences them in a different way, and it’s not the same from one day to the next or throughout your lifetime.

You experience love differently with one partner from another, and the same with desire. Even with desire, that might change throughout your partnership with someone. From the first day of your relationship to the second year, it will have changed completely.

And it’s such a personal and creative force that it’s something you’re constantly having to learn about yourself, learn about your partner, and you can’t ever just rely on it staying the same. It’s ever-changing.

So yeah, I’m always being surprised by love and desire, and that’s what makes it interesting. Writing about sex and relationships today is not the same as when I started my podcast, Sextras, six years ago. It’s not the same as when my mum was the age that I am now, or my grandma.

So yeah, it’s always fluctuating, which makes it a perfect thing to dissect. I love writing about it.

13/09/2026, 12:54 - Finbarre:

I heard that smiling voice towards the end there that contained a cheekiness, but also a contentment as well. Right. I mean, this is your chance to pass on a card to the next guest. Could you shuffle the cards that you have in your hand, pull one out and take a picture of it for me?

13/09/2026, 12:55 - Honey Wyatt:

13/09/2026, 12:55 - Honey Wyatt: Thanks Finbarre!

13/09/2026, 12:56 - Honey Wyatt: This is the deck I’m using:

13/09/2026, 12:57 - Finbarre: I know it well, I picked up a deck of these from the Museo del Tarot in Barcelona and bought it for someone dear to me in San Diego. It is stop-you-in-your-tracks-lovely and a great looking set

13/09/2026, 12:58 - Honey Wyatt: It’s gorgeous, my friend I mentioned earlier bought it for me!

13/09/2026, 12:58 - Finbarre: YOUR FRIEND HAS MAGNIFICENT TASTE

13/09/2026, 12:59 - Finbarre:

I say without a trace of bias.

When that first picture appeared, I thought, hang on, I’ve not seen that for about a year.

Honey, it has been a wonderful hour. Thank you for spending it with me on Tarot DMs.

And I hope you have a wonderful rest of your weekend, with your feet up, doing very little, I hope!

13/09/2026, 13:00 - Honey Wyatt:

Thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure to talk to you and I’m glad you appreciate my friend’s taste.

I think it’s a great deck. So yeah, have a lovely weekend and speak soon!

Meet previous guests on Tarot DMs

Jill Dawson is an award-winning British novelist. Author of twelve novels and editor of six anthologies of poetry and stories, her latest novel, Pixie, tells the story of Pamela Colman Smith, illustrator of the Rider Waite Smith Tarot deck. Jill is a Fellow of The Royal Society of Literature and certified Jungian Tarot reader and has read Tarot for herself and other writers for forty years.

Read more of Jill’s work at jilldawson.co.uk

09/09/2026, 20:01 - Finbarre:

Welcome to Tarot DMs with Finbarre.

I have the pleasure of speaking to the poet and novelist Jill Dawson, and this feels like a particularly appropriate one.

She’s a tarot reader, and her latest novel, Pixie, brings Pamela Colman Smith, the artist behind the original Rider-Waite-Smith tarot, vividly into view.

So tonight we’re going to do something Pamela probably would have appreciated.

We’re going to shuffle the cards, see what turns up, let them decide where the conversation goes.

09/09/2026, 20:02 - Jill Dawson:

Hi there. Thank you for having me. Really looking forward to this.

09/09/2026, 20:03 - Finbarre:

Because it turns out you can never have quite enough tarot cards.

Tonight we’re going to be using a brand new deck.

This is my giant Rider-Waite-Smith tarot.

These things are huge. Each one could just be a framed picture.

But I think my postman, and also my Vinted account, are getting rather tired of the number of decks I’ve been buying recently.

I have so many.

How about yourself, Jill?

What got you into tarot?

And currently, what is your favourite deck yet?

09/09/2026, 20:05 - Jill Dawson:

So I remember exactly the very first tarot reading I ever had. And it was something that I wrote in my diary: 19th of September, 1986. So a very long time ago.

And she did indeed use Pamela’s deck, as I think of it now, the Rider-Waite deck, as it used to be called.

And so I didn’t think much of that tarot reading and wanted to learn myself, which I began doing.

And when I got into learning, I was using a real 80s deck. I think it was 1986 it was created, the Motherpeace Round Tarot, by Vicki Noble and Karen Vogel.

And I still use that one every day to just turn a card over and read for myself.

I haven’t got that many compared to a lot of people I know.

I’ve got an abstract one by Ithell Colquhoun. I never really know if I’m saying her name correctly. The surrealist artist.

And Niki de Saint Phalle, another artist.

I love the kind of, I suppose, the creative ones and the ones that take tarot in strange directions.

09/09/2026, 20:09 - Finbarre:

I know the one you mean. I’ve never managed to get my hands on that particular deck.

But interestingly, another writer, Amy S. Kaufman, on Tarot DMs chat number 11, which was back in November 2025, was using the Motherpeace Tarot.

That was the first time that I had seen it. And since then, I’ve looked it up.

And of course, it’s worth a fair bit of money. So not that you’re dashing out to sell it on eBay, but it’s definitely worth hanging on to.

But of course, like me, I have my first ever tarot deck, and there is no way, come hell nor high water, I would give it away.

And it’ll probably be passed down as some kind of cursed heirloom to my kids.

Right. We have, speaking of curses, the first card. And this is the anchor card for this month.

We’re starting with a bang. We’re going in hard, and we’re starting with the Tower.

This is the card that everyone this month will be receiving.

I’m going to ask you a question about this difficult card. Are you ready?

09/09/2026, 20:10 - Finbarre:

09/09/2026, 20:10 - Jill Dawson: Yes!

09/09/2026, 20:12 - Finbarre:

There are a few cards that come with their own sound effects, but this one comes with a reverberation you can almost feel.

Right, your question from the tower would be about witch accusations and murder trials and disappearances and scandal that appear in your books.

I’m thinking of these moments that are apparently stable and then the character’s world can collapse.

So as a storyteller, are you more interested in catastrophe or what the catastrophe reveals?

09/09/2026, 20:15 - Jill Dawson:

I knew it was going to be the Tower before you even spoke, which often happens to me with the tarot. I kind of know which card I’m going to pick. I imagine lots of people have that experience.

And I lived in a tower block in Hackney for a time. And in my second novel, that features a great deal, the tower block, the sense of living in one.

So to answer your question, I think I’m very much interested in people, psychology, the unconscious, the forces that work on us.

So the answer would definitely be, it’s what people do with the catastrophes and things that happen in their lives. How, when the rug is pulled from under you and your world crumbles, how you can land like a cat and dust yourself off and carry on, or you can also crumble.

And I guess I’ve written about witchcraft, obviously, in The Bewitching. I’ve written about domestic violence in several of my novels. I have written about things which we can’t recover from, you know, that are just catastrophic, such as the murder in The Language of Birds of the young Mandy River.

And I think it’s like a sort of story, story swipe, is how I think of it, at the Lord Lucan case. It’s not exactly the same, but it’s sort of touching upon those facts.

And in that case, it’s her friend who has to survive the catastrophic Tower moment of Mandy’s death.

So I guess I’m very much interested in that, in what people do and how they carry on.

09/09/2026, 20:18 - Finbarre: On witchcraft, do you have a familiar yourself?

09/09/2026, 20:19 - Finbarre: I ask, as my three cats are waiting as I type just outside my door with “Feed us Human!” eyes

09/09/2026, 20:20 - Jill Dawson: There is a grey cat with pale green eyes who thinks he is mine but belongs to my neighbour…

09/09/2026, 20:21 - Finbarre: I’m sure ALL cats think you’re theirs! At least every feline I have met so far has that air of aloofness. Aw, give it a scritch from me next time it saunters in!

09/09/2026, 20:22 - Jill Dawson: Indeed…

09/09/2026, 20:24 - Jill Dawson: I have animals which feature prominently in all of my novels: birds, bats, bees, seahorses, hares, snails…

09/09/2026, 20:25 - Finbarre:

One of my children is going through an almighty snail phase.

All of the snails have names.

They will happily just let the snail go slimy, slimy, up the hand over the fingers,

and will regularly hold snail funerals for the ones that pass away.

Thinking about calamity outside of the abstract and into the real world,

how does the energy of the destruction of the tower, whether it be misfortune, bad luck, catastrophe, how does that affect your creative process?

Does it power it?

I’d love to know.

09/09/2026, 20:29 - Jill Dawson:

Oh, that’s a lovely snail story. My novel, The Crime Writer, about Patricia Highsmith, tells of how she kept snails as pets. And while I was working on it, my daughter also did for a bit of research so that I could observe what it was like to try and keep snails. So that’s very funny.

To your question, calamity and how it powers things. I actually got the Tower in that very first reading that I had back in the day when I was young, 1986. And I didn’t like it, but it was accurate. Something was very much coming to an end in my life. It was a very, very big change.

And interestingly, I rarely get that card. I’ve had quite a stable situation for about 25 years without, I’m glad to say, being rocked too much.

Now, the writers I work with, I teach creative writing, of course, use all of the difficult things and the trauma and the darkness in their writing, as do I. But one of the things I advise is that it’s good to do it from a place of stability, so that you feel quite safe with where you’re going in the material.

So, interestingly, I, you know, I’m puzzled by why that card doesn’t come up a lot for me. But equally, that feels correct with the situation I’m in, which is a lot more harmonious. And I feel as if I got a lot of my more difficult experiences out of the way in my 20s and 30s.

I started to publish my first novel around 34. And from that period onwards, was able to go into some quite extreme places because I myself felt rather safe.

Yeah, that’s all I can say there. So, it’s a card that when it comes up, if I’m reading for others, can be alarming, can’t it? People greet that with alarm.

But my training in tarot reading is Jungian. So there is a sort of slight difference there. You’re working with the querent in a kind of co-creation.

So you’re not the boss of them, if you like, you’re allowing the querent to say what they’re seeing. And it feels to me that it’s a little bit more empowering, and takes away what’s most frightening about the Tower, which is the feeling of being out of control, you know, of not being able to control our lives, our situations, a fantasy we probably hold very dear.

09/09/2026, 20:35 - Finbarre:

Jill, I find it incredible that back in 1986, your tarot journey started here. And I can just picture the scene of Madonna’s True Blue playing in the background, possibly Freddie Mercury or Run-DMC and Aerosmith’s Walk This Way.

I would like you, if you’ve got your Rider-Waite-Smith cards, to draw the wild card for me.

Now, normally I would pick out a card, I would ask you to say stop or to find a moment where the right card is being shuffled.

But you’ve got the cards there. I’m sure Pixie wouldn’t mind us bending the rules a little.

So obviously you can’t have the Tower again.

Give the cards a shuffle and take a picture of what is revealed.

09/09/2026, 20:36 - Jill Dawson: Full deck or just Major ?

09/09/2026, 20:36 - Finbarre: Full deck please, we’ll count reversed cards too

09/09/2026, 20:37 - Jill Dawson:

09/09/2026, 20:38 - Finbarre: What a dashing young chap!

09/09/2026, 20:38 - Jill Dawson: Yes! And was upright!

09/09/2026, 20:41 - Finbarre: *Jungian feels like such an odd thing to say out loud

The horse must be very grateful for that.

But this being a card of momentum and acting fast and hot-headedness and sometimes heat without staying power.

I’m curious about the Jungian approach to this card, because that’s not an area that I’m familiar with.

What Jungian vibes would you get?

09/09/2026, 20:44 - Jill Dawson:

Well, interestingly, in the Motherpeace deck, which accords very much with my sort of Jungian training. Yes, Jungian is such a funny word, isn’t it? Carl Jung. I never, again, I’m sure I’m pronouncing it correctly.

But the Motherpeace deck, it’s the son of wands rather than the knight of wands. And it’s quite a playful figure. As you say, charging forward, when I see that, I know myself to be an impulsive person. So I respond to that card quite well.

I would say that one of the things the Jungian training emphasizes is intuition over overthinking. We are encouraged to build a relationship with our cards, our own deck.

And so if they mean a particular thing to us, so for example, the two knights cards, well, as again, I call them sons because S-O-N-S, that’s what they’re called in Motherpeace.

There’s a son of discs and a son of swords, and I think of each of them as my two sons. And that’s a particular way I read them, sort of making a very personal relationship with the cards.

The Jungian course I did was a couple of years, and it was with clinicians, including a wonderful guy in his 70s who was really an old hippie who loved the tarot for a very long time, but was now a very senior Jungian academic, incredibly knowledgeable.

And I always felt he brought a great deal more to every reading through attentiveness to even the tiniest, you know, there is a little snail, isn’t there, on one of the cards? Is it the nine of diamonds? Off the top of my head, I can’t remember.

But those tiny details that we were looking for, I began responding to.

What else? I mean, there’s the sort of idea of everything having a shadow, of the collective unconscious, so that the cards and the tarot knowledge is part of all of our collective unconscious and knowledge of sort of archetypes.

There are many, many ways in which the... it’s a very interesting way to look at tarot.

And because I’d been doing it for a long time, at that point, 30-odd years, I suppose I wanted to deepen my practice, not by learning more, you know, lists and interpretations. I was a bit tired of those, but learning different ways to respond to the cards.

And just to say quickly, I did also have a reading with the designer of the Motherpeace deck, Vicki Noble, along with her collaborator, Karen Vogel, who did the illustrations.

Vicki is incredibly knowledgeable, also in her 70s, and living in California. And that was just truly wonderful.

09/09/2026, 20:46 - Jill Dawson: 9 of Pentacles!

09/09/2026, 20:46 - Finbarre:

If I lean over to my Knight of Wands card here, make sure he has the visor lifted above his gorgeous auburn locks there, and ask him what question I should pose to you.

It would be, what is your relationship between travel and storytelling?

09/09/2026, 20:49 - Jill Dawson:

What a brilliant question. Travel.

I lived in the States. I’ve taught in the States. I lived in a log cabin in Washington for a time. And for me, writing comes out of place very often.

Also, it comes out of physical sort of... how do I express this? It comes out of movement, not just sitting at my desk.

So, for example, walking, swimming, going places is how I do my research.

I don’t think that just sitting at my desk thinking is the best way to get the best novel out of me.

And for the new novel that I’m writing, I’ve travelled to the Hebrides. In the past, for my novel on the poet Rupert Brooke, I went to Tahiti.

I think travel is absolutely crucial to me as an enlivening, enriching experience. Of course, it is for everyone. But something about travelling alone with the agenda of looking for something that you need without really knowing what it is.

I’ve got a wonderful anecdote of going to Fort Worth, where Patricia Highsmith was from, going into a bookshop, asking, did they have a book by her? And the bookseller sort of looked very strange and disappeared.

And then he returned wheeling in a wheelchair a very old chap who turned out to be his father, who’d known Patricia Highsmith when she was a girl. So this man had known her when she was six years old.

And you can only get that if you go somewhere. And no amount of books would have brought that moment to me. No amount of dusty archives.

So I have a lot of synchronicities, which is another Jungian concept. But, you know, rather magical, strange things that happen the moment I begin working on something creatively.

And that’s just one example. I have tons and tons of them. I love seeing how they gather around me once I begin a book.

09/09/2026, 20:53 - Finbarre:

Jill the hour has absolutely flown by leaving us now with the third card which is the Gift card and this was conjured up from a conversation that I had with the peripatetic prince of punk himself, Frank Turner. In that conversation the Seven of Wands made an appearance yeah it’s another wands card and this one is yours.

I’ll just show you the picture.

09/09/2026, 20:53 - Finbarre:

09/09/2026, 20:54 - Finbarre:

With your pen held like a quarterstaff, can you tell me if you’ve ever defended a character that you’ve written about against history?

09/09/2026, 20:56 - Jill Dawson:

I feel I’ve defended characters many times, and it’s a strong impulse of mine.

So thank you for that card.

For example, the nanny that I mentioned in The Language of Birds, the young woman who’s murdered. That’s very much an impassioned plea for us to remember the victims of crimes and not romanticize murderers, as Lord Lucan was in his time.

And the victim he left behind was very much forgotten.

So there’s that one.

There’s my novel, The Bewitching, where I’m very much defending the woman charged with witchcraft. It’s a true story of Alice Samuel.

Yes, it’s a strong impulse of mine.

And what a lovely card to receive.

And just to quickly say, I’m starting an online course tomorrow called Seven Secrets Every Writer Should Know.

Actually, not tomorrow. Next week, I meant to say, next Tuesday.

But the sevens in that image, I think that’s very helpful to me and is a number I really resonate with.

09/09/2026, 21:00 - Finbarre:

Something tells me from the impish giggling I can picture on the edge of my hearing that this question would need an entire week’s worth of conversation.

Of course, I need to ask you about Pixie.

And how do you think, going back to defending characters, as a significant figure of history, how do you think she’s been misunderstood?

09/09/2026, 21:03 - Jill Dawson:

I think it’s safe to say that Pamela Colman Smith was very much written out of tarot’s story for a long time.

And in favour of, you know, people understanding Arthur Edward Waite, his contribution. He described her as a draftswoman and someone he might have to spoon-feed. And I think for a long time, that’s how she was seen.

Now, I really, really hope in my novel, Pixie, I give a very, very different version of that.

And I would say I’m doing an event, for example, at the UK Tarot Conference where she’s being honoured and people are very much more aware of her. The event is on October 9th and 10th, at Copthorne Tara Hotel, London.

But one thing I want to say, that in my talks I’m giving about the novel, people often say, “Oh, Pamela died in penury in Cornwall,” and has, you know, how sad that is.

And she did have a lot of significant money struggles. But it’s worth saying she didn’t die in penury. She died owing a lot to the Inland Revenue, which is quite a different thing.

It suggests she made a lot of money or made money and didn’t pay her tax, one or the other.

It’s still very sad. It’s part of a, you know, a sad end for her that she wanted to leave the money to her life partner, Nora Lake, and wasn’t able to.

And that her most famous quote is, “I just done a very big job for a very little cash, 80 cards. Some people may like them.”

And as we know, all these years later, hundreds of millions of people have liked them.

So yes, that is sad.

But I guess with Pixie, with my novel, I really, really want to celebrate her and celebrate creativity and that impulse to draw, design, make things exist, create things, which is very strong and persists, even when, you know, money isn’t forthcoming, fame isn’t certain.

And in many cases, not just hers, but artists are overlooked in their lifetime.

So I love that I’m bringing, I’m part of bringing her name back into people’s consciousness.

I’m hearing that a lot on the talks I give about my novel and that pleases me immensely.

And I feel it would very much please her.

09/09/2026, 21:08 - Finbarre:

One last thing before we put the cards away.

Jill, could you pass on the gift of Pixie?

Draw a card, whichever you like.

And that will be handed to the next person on Tarot DMs.

It could be a good, bad, unusual, mysterious one.

09/09/2026, 21:09 - Jill Dawson:

09/09/2026, 21:10 - Jill Dawson: Haha! I genuinely picked this

09/09/2026, 21:11 - Finbarre:

I do love the teeny-weeny fish and that nonchalant air of nonsense the card has.

It’s a very lovely one to leave things on.

Jill, thank you so much for spending an hour with Tarot DMs and for bringing Pixie into the conversation.

Pixie‘s out now and gives Pamela Colman Smith something she was denied far too often in her own lifetime: centre stage.

Thank you, Jill!

09/09/2026, 21:12 - Jill Dawson: Daughter of Cups in Motherpeace. Radiating joy to others!

09/09/2026, 21:12 - Jill Dawson:

Thank you, Finbarre. And I’m glad I left you with that fish in a cup as a gift from Pixie, which I did genuinely pick. Thanks for interviewing me. It has been fabulous.

Meet previous guests on Tarot DMs

Frank Turner is a singer, songwriter and author who went from fronting post-hardcore band Million Dead to a solo career that has now passed 3,000 live shows. His tenth studio album, Undefeated, was released in 2024, followed in 2025 by The Next Ten Years, a collection of rarities, covers, collaborations and acoustic recordings.

Find out more at frank-turner.com

This interview began as an experiment: what happens when the Tarot DMs format leaves the messenger app and escapes via email?

Frank Turner was about to find out.

23/08/2026 - Finbarre:

Thank you for being the first brave soul to try out this format, letting three tarot cards of mine loose in your inbox.

I’m going to send you three cards, the first being the Anchor card for this month, a card that all of my guests will receive.

And it is...

The Hierophant

This is a card of tradition and the passing down of established knowledge. The Hierophant represents the structures that shape our world, conventions and the belief systems we are handed. It represents lineage and asks the question: “Who holds the authority to teach?”

For someone who has spent over twenty years involved in the chaos of punk and the heritage of folk music, I would love to know:

What have you had to push against to get where you are now?

24/08/2026 - Frank Turner:

I’m cautious, off the bat, about painting my life story too much as a tale of woe or hardship overcome. In the broad spectrum of human experience, I have led a charmed life from a comfortable start, and I want to begin by acknowledging that obvious fact.

All that throat-clearing aside, there are some challenges faced, and things I have had to push against, in my time.

I’d start by saying that I’ve had to push against the expectations of my background, and more specifically my parents. I was not raised to be... this.

I was an academic kid, pushed to be such, and there was a general feeling that I would do something more “respectable” with my life than I have.

As a kid, I got into metal, which put the literal fear of god into my folks. Once that progressed to punk rock and hardcore, their concerns graduated from being aesthetic and moral to being social and political.

I was banned from buying records or going to shows, and my musicality, once it moved on from middle-class piano lessons, was discouraged and lobbied against at every turn.

I reacted by essentially disappearing from my parents’ world and, metaphorically, running off to join the circus.

At every stage of the formative years of my life and career, the only person who thought there was any wisdom or promise in my obsession with the music I love was me. My family recoiled in horror, my friends, such as they were, laughed.

The next problem that arose, against which I continue to push every day, was the limitations of my own innate talents and abilities.

I’m not a hugely gifted musician, and less so a singer.

I used a combination of bloody-mindedness and brute force to teach myself the rudiments I needed to begin making sounds that weren’t completely without merit, but it’s safe to say that my gift, to the extent I have one, is as a writer and communicator, not as a musician.

Day on day I still strive to improve my skillset, with the eventual dream of qualifying one day as average from a technical standpoint.

The point of those skills is to facilitate communication, of course, and on that score I’ve done OK. But I was not Mozart or Alex Turner, not a relation, contrary to some of the sillier internet rumours I’ve come across. I had to graft to get to where I am as a musician.

Speaking of graft, I have not had the fortune of the obvious career path.

No shade on those who have, but my success did not come through big record deals, magazine fawning or radio station, remember them, attention.

The industry as a whole has always regarded me as something of an interloper, at least in part because of my educational background, which is ironic, as the main complaint about that unwanted part of my CV is the unfair advantage it allegedly gives me.

There have been moments of grudging coverage here and there, but for the most part I built everything I have the hard way, simply because there was no other option.

Finally, like everyone, I push against the constraints of being human day on day. Of getting older, of self-doubt, of irrelevance or obsolescence.

But that hardly makes me unique.

24/08/2026 - Finbarre:

Thank you Frank for opening the first card with such a heartfelt and honest sharing of your life.

I smiled when you mentioned radio stations. I used to work at Manchester’s ALL FM way back when, and looking at the landscape today, it feels like another world.

Back then there were so many gatekeepers, the magazine fawning, the prescribed paths you mentioned bypassing.

Hearing how you metaphorically ran off to join the circus and built your career the hard way, simply because the industry viewed you as an interloper, brings us nicely to your next card.

Your journey, especially that sheer bloody-mindedness and brute force you used to forge your skills, perfectly embodies the energy of the...

King of Wands

In tarot, this King is someone who takes a spark of an idea and wills it into reality through grit and vision, all without permission.

Your relentless daily graft to hone your craft despite self-doubt is pure King of Wands energy. It is about building a big bonfire that people want to gather around.

Which brings me to question two:

What is it that keeps your bonfire burning?

27/08/2026 - Frank Turner:

This is a good question, and one I’ve asked myself many times.

For the most part, I don’t operate on a daily basis feeling especially driven, but people have often remarked on my work schedule being at one extreme.

And I have to say that as I get a little older and a little further from some of my earlier exploits, I do look back at that younger man, increasingly a stranger, and think he comes off as a little manic at times.

That said, I have always believed there are 24 hours in every day, and I have a habit of just tackling an issue, a problem, a task, head on and straight away.

Why wait?

Sometimes that possibly means my work is rushed, but there’s certainly more of it to pick through.

I guess in part I’m animated by a sense of limited time, mortality and so on. I wasn’t especially haunted by loss as a child, though I’ve had my share in more recent years, but nonetheless it’s self-evident that there are limits on what any one person can get done, so don’t fuck about.

I also have a sense of a debt, on some levels.

So many great songwriters started out with me and didn’t end up with the career I have, that I feel duty-bound to live out this life-path to its maximum, on their behalf as well as my own.

I have been blessed with luck in my life and I don’t want to be churlish about it, or take it for granted.

But ultimately, I think I’ve been driven by a sense of having something to say, ideas to communicate.

That should be at the bottom of all art, I think.

I didn’t ask for the songs I’ve written to arrive in the way and at the rate that they did, but they arrived nonetheless, and I wanted to share them.

When and if that changes, my drive may change with it.

We shall see.

27/08/2026 - Finbarre:

I was moved by your mention of the debt owed to peers who didn’t get to see their own journeys through.

Honouring the paths they could have taken by sprinting along your own as if they were still in the race is a fascinating way to see a career.

I was also struck by your point that your songs rarely arrive when expected. That uninvited arrival of ideas leads us directly to your third and final card.

The Moon

La Lune rules the subconscious, the dream state, and the peculiar deep-sea moods that swim far beneath the surface of our waking lives.

It governs the things we feel instinctively but can’t pin down easily.

As the mirror opposite of the Strength card, it asks us to step off the road, run into the woods howling and maybe go feral for a while.

The writer John Higgs chose this card. In his recent book Lynchian: The Spell of David Lynch, Higgs explores how Lynch champions the dream-like and unexplained. He advocates for letting a mystery remain a mystery. Rather than peeping behind the curtain.

The Moon reflects this, thriving on the rum and the uncanny.

Since you mentioned that your ideas often swim up from somewhere unseen, here is your final question:

How do you catch your fleeting inspiration without overthinking it and breaking the spell?

30/08/2026 - Frank Turner:

This is the million-dollar, well, maybe less these days, question for any songwriter or creative person.

Songwriting is both an art and a craft.

The craft side can be examined, practised, taught, trained. The other side, the “inspiration”, as opposed to perspiration, side of the cliché remains somehow ineluctable, and perhaps always should.

Whilst you can train the craft side of your creativity, learning scales, techniques, chord shapes, studying other writers and so on, I do think there is some work you can do for the inspiration part.

I think you can work on putting yourself in the way of good ideas, even if you’ll never entirely be able to predict where they come from or when.

The best metaphor for this I know is fishing.

You can buy the right equipment and learn the techniques, but you can also work out good spots on the bank, good times of day and a good mindset.

Ultimately, whether or not the fish, ideas, come remains unpredictable, but it is possible to increase your odds.

All that said, to actually answer your question, at some point you have to remember the mystery, the impenetrability of the task at hand.

When good ideas start to flow, there’s a moment where you let go of the wheel, to mix my metaphors to breaking point.

The best stuff retains a sense of being unstudied, free-flowing.

Sometimes I write and rewrite a verse or a melody for years, but I often find that the best stuff is the stuff that retains its original form from when it first showed itself to me.

Don’t overthink, let it be what it wants to be.

Hope that all makes sense.

Alas, I don’t have a tarot deck, I’m afraid. I’ll leave the picking to you.

31/08/2026 - Finbarre:

Thank you Frank!

I was mulling over which card to choose for you and, after listening again to your track Get Better, I’m going to pick the...

Seven of Wands

It has such big “You Shall Not Pass” energy.

The card shows a man standing on high ground, outnumbered, fiercely swinging his staff to fend off six others thrusting up at him from a ditch.

He is in the thick of a “fight for four square feet of land like a mean old son of a bitch”.

You nailed it with your answers throughout this chain.

The traditions of the Hierophant are where the song starts, but the Seven of Wands is where we leave.

Punk-rock defiance.

Refusing to give up the hill.

Thank you again for being so generous with your time and thoughts.

04/09/2026 - Frank Turner:

Thanks Finbarre, was fun to do.

Meet previous guests on Tarot DMs

John Higgs is a writer whose work explores the strange ideas, hidden connections and stories that shape culture. His books have taken in subjects including Timothy Leary, the KLF, William Blake, James Bond, The Beatles, Doctor Who, British identity and the future, often finding unexpected narratives in subjects we thought we already understood.

His books include The KLF: Chaos, Magic and the Band Who Burned a Million Pounds, Stranger Than We Can Imagine: Making Sense of the Twentieth Century, Watling Street, The Future Starts Here, William Blake vs the World and Love and Let Die: James Bond, The Beatles and the British Psyche.

Before becoming a full-time writer, he worked in television, radio and video games, directing more than 100 episodes of children’s television.

John is a prolific public speaker and has appeared at venues and festivals including Tate Britain, the British Library, Sotheby’s, Latitude, Wilderness, Brighton Festival and the World Science Fiction Convention.

Discover more about John Higgs, his books and current projects at johnhiggs.com.

[2026-08-25 20:03:21] Finbarre:

Welcome to Tarot DMs with Finbarre. My guest today is the writer John Higgs, a man whose books have a habit of taking subjects you thought you understood and rearranging them until they’re even stranger than before. He’s written about Timothy Leary, the KLF, William Blake, James Bond, The Beatles, Doctor Who, the 20th century, the future, British identity, and, recently, David Lynch.

Before becoming a full-time writer, John worked in television, radio and video games. He reviewed games for Cybernet, directed children’s television and, at the age of 40, made a decision that he later summed up rather beautifully: he’d rather risk being penniless than bitter.

His work is fascinated by coincidences, competing realities, imagination, counterculture, and the stories hiding under the stories we think we already know. So John, three cards are here, and they all have questions.

[2026-08-25 20:05:06] John Higgs:

Hi, Finbarre. Hello. Thanks for that lovely introduction. I’m just trying to work out how to use this voice note thing. And if you can hear this, then that’s got to be a good thing. I hope all is well. I’m keen to see what card you have found for me.

[2026-08-25 20:06:42] Finbarre:

John, before I reveal your first card, I need to ask, as someone who is well-versed with the rum and the uncanny and the downright peculiar, what’s the strangest thing that’s happened to you recently?

[2026-08-25 20:08:14] John Higgs:

The strangest thing, I mean, the strangest thing today has just been reading about the death of Dolly Parton, which I was just reading about before this call. It sort of came out of the blue. That sort of shook me a little bit. She was a good person under every definition of that phrase.

But strange, strange. I mean, well, strange happened.

I was involved in anointing a local postman as the new Duke and Duchess of Sussex. About a month or so back, there was a Duke and Duchess of Sussex and they sort of went AWOL. So we thought we needed a new one, and we thought Chris would be perfect for it.

So there was a strange ritual on a roundabout at the bottom of Burgess Hill, which is the very centre of Sussex, on the eve of Sussex Day. That seemed to surprise a lot of people driving around the roundabout. That was an odd thing. That’s probably quite strange.

[2026-08-25 20:10:34] Finbarre:

You’ve utterly knocked me sideways. I didn’t know about Dolly. The cards didn’t reveal that one.

My goodness. We’ve lost a very bright light in the world. She was, as you say, a wonderful lady.

The ritual that you’re involved with on the roundabout is a complete tone shift. And did you crown them? I mean, you said anointed. I imagine no oils were involved. How did you transform them from being commoners to royalty, nobility, whatever it would be?

[2026-08-25 20:12:11] John Higgs:

Yeah, there was a crown. I think my friend Eric had got it off eBay. He needed a crown. He needed red lipstick. We put red lipstick on him in honor of Sussex’s greatest son, Robert Smith of the Cure. He was tempted with hagstones. He had to sing Sussex by the Sea. There was a certificate. He wanted a certificate. So I don’t know about you, but that all sounds legitimate to me. I think that sounds like a new Duke and Duchess of Sussex.

I believe the old pretenders are trying to come back to fight him for the role. We’ll see how that turns out. But in my mind, that’s the Duke and Duchess of Sussex is Chris.

[2026-08-25 20:14:30] Finbarre:

So say we all. I’ve got your first card here, John.

Now, I had absolutely no idea which deck to use. I was going to default to the Rider-Waite-Smith, which we’ve been using for most of this month, but then it occurred to me that a little while ago, I think it was back in 2022, you released a book called Love and Let Die, which is Bond, The Beatles and the British psyche.

And I realised that I have the deck from Live and Let Die, and I also have the Red Album and the Blue Album, which I use as the background.

So, without further ado, you have The Hierophant.

[2026-08-25 20:14:32] Finbarre:

[2026-08-25 20:15:39] Finbarre: What vibes do you get here?

[2026-08-25 20:16:25] John Higgs:

Well, that is an excellent deck and an excellent background. Yeah, I like that a lot. The Hierophant, we kind of could have done with one of those when we were coming up with a ritual to anoint a new Duke and Duchess of Sussex on the roundabout.

He would have understood what the ritual should have been, I’m sure. Whereas we were just winging it, basically. I think we’re all just sort of winging it. Whether we get by without the Hierophant or not, I don’t know. But lovely deck, interesting first card. And let’s see where this goes. I’m liking this.

[2026-08-25 20:17:20] John Higgs: Extra points for the bird nest in the beard

[2026-08-25 20:18:56] Finbarre:

If this card was on the roundabout with you, this chap with the incredible beard, he’d have strolled over to you and he’d have asked you a question something like this.

I’m thinking William Blake, distrusted authority, while institutions like the monarchy and James Bond, and of course the institution that is Doctor Who, survive because people keep investing them with meaning.

When you write, are you more interested in belief or structure?

[2026-08-25 20:19:37] John Higgs: Also like the way he is hovering an inch off the ground, like Fenchurch in Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy (- Finbarre: 😂 -)

[2026-08-25 20:22:07] John Higgs:

Oh, that’s a question. You say, when I write, am I more interested in belief or structure?

And I assume you’re not talking about the craft of writing, because obviously structure is far more important than belief in that.

I think I’m concerned more with value. I think I’m concerned more with what is worth bringing to the fore and what is worth focusing on a little more.

I think the idea is that you’re trying to come up with a better version of our story, and culture, and all those things. And you’re trying to focus on the sparkly, wonderful, useful, good things. I think that’s what we’re trying to do.

Belief is impossible to avoid, as much as it’s good to try and avoid it, to not believe your own bullshit, as Robert Anton Wilson always advised us.

Structure is just the way our minds work. They’re going to find structure in the wildest chaos. Those will always be there.

But yeah, so I think I focus more on value, I would say.

[2026-08-25 20:24:35] Finbarre:

You mentioned not believing your own bullshit. As a writer, what are the warning signs when you discover that you’ve started to do that?

[2026-08-25 20:26:32] John Higgs:

I guess the warning signs are that you hadn’t stopped to check yourself because, you know, you’re always going to be doing it. We’re always doing it. It’s entirely natural. It’s the way we think.

And if you don’t, every now and again, just pull yourself up and go, “Hang on, let’s just look at this from some other angles,” you will be doing it.

And, you know, you have to do it at times. You do have to have a point of purpose and a perspective to the thing you’re writing. It can’t be avoided.

It’s just when it’s blindly adopted, I think, that’s the problem. That’s the thing you’ve got to watch out for.

But yeah, there’s no one other than yourself who reminds you to do it, alas.

[2026-08-25 20:29:04] Finbarre:

I detected a touch of regret in that wisdom. Thank you so much for that, John.

Okay, we have your second card. This is the Wild card, and I’ll draw this from the deck.

It could be any of them, any of the 76. We’ve got one card that’s pre-selected, the Anchor card.

That was The Hierophant, the chap with the little eggs in his beard and the fabulous trousers.

And we’ll have a gift card for you at the end. This is the one that’s passed down from the previous guest.

So the second card could be anything. I’m going to shuffle the cards. You say stop, and I’ll tell you what it is.

[2026-08-25 20:30:03] John Higgs: Stop!

[2026-08-25 20:31:12] Finbarre: Oh! Hello. Now these Minor Arcana cards are rather mysterious and give little away. You get the Six of Wands.

[2026-08-25 20:31:25] Finbarre:

[2026-08-25 20:33:30] John Higgs: I am not knowledgeable enough about the tarot to interpret that, but I admire the campness of the wands. They are very Yellow Submarine Pepperland (- Finbarre: 😂 -)

[2026-08-25 20:35:13] Finbarre:

In many other decks like the Rider-Waite-Smith, the Six of Wands is represented by a chap and a horse, and he’s flanked by his footman.

And this knight has a laurel crown and also a laurel hanging from his lance or his staff in this. And it’s a card of public recognition.

It’s when you’ve arrived and you’ve got confidence.

It’s to do with encouraging news. It’s victory. So, it’s a good card.

If this was a question, it would be something along the lines of how well you’ve done.

And I’m thinking that your books have got incredible praise from writers and artists like Alan Moore, Terry Gilliam and others.

When people have seen your work and liked it, I’m curious to know whose approval meant the most to you personally.

[2026-08-25 20:39:38] John Higgs: (- Finbarre: 😮 -)

Oh, that’s a hard question. I kind of, I think I kind of blank a lot of that out. You know, I don’t like read reviews. I kind of feel they’re none of my business. And, you know, it’s not like if they make a good point, you can go back in the time machine and change what you’ve written.

The book’s sort of done and you’re working on the next one and your mind’s in a different place and all opinions on your work are entirely valid, whoever they’re from, whether they’re positive or negative, whether they’re by, you know, someone you utterly admire or someone you’ve never met. They’re all equally sort of valid. And you can’t sort of get too emotionally invested in them or personally invested in them.

There are things that, that, that do sort of land nicely on me though. There’s, there’s a, one was, I became, my name became the name of a block in Mega City One in a Judge Dredd cartoon in 2000 AD. It was a John Higgs block. That’s not bad, is it? That’s pretty good.

And the other, I was told by someone who used to work at Wellington Public Library in New Zealand that I was among the most stolen authors from Wellington Public Library in New Zealand, along with William Burroughs, if I remember correctly. Very, very pleased with that.

So yeah, there are things that come along in the, you just, you just smile inwardly at and, you know, enjoy. Those are lovely.

[2026-08-25 20:45:23] Finbarre:

I can’t think of a greater accolade than a city block from Mega City One being named after your good self.

Hopefully not too many. Are they block wars that they have? Not too many visits from Mean Machine Angel?

I’ve not read those comics since about 1987. A friend of my dad’s used to smuggle them to me when I was about 10.

And I probably shouldn’t have been reading them at that age, but I love them so much.

We have a third card. This is your guest card, and this one’s been given to you by the director James Crow, the screenwriter Simon Cluett, who have created a film called Harbinger.

And these two creators of horror have brought you...

[2026-08-25 20:46:48] Finbarre:

[2026-08-25 20:47:30] Finbarre:

Considering this position close to that balcony, it’s probably appropriate that you have The Hanged Man.

[2026-08-25 20:48:50] John Higgs:

Yeah, well, fair enough. Thanks for that, horror guys!

I suppose if it comes after a card signifying victory, someone’s going to string you up afterwards.

I like the way, you know, he’s just trying to read his book and, like, catch some butterflies. Doesn’t seem that bad, does it?

I’m not sure the punishment fits the crime there.

How would you interpret The Hanged Man?

[2026-08-25 20:48:57] Finbarre:

In case you’re thinking about, oh my goodness, that’s terrible. The Hanged Man is one of my favorite cards because it represents an altered perspective. So very similar to Odin hanging from Yggdrasil, reaching down to grab the handful of runes, a little bit like, I’m sure there’s a William Blake painting in a similar vein.

It’s a card of sacrifice, but also learning. And I think if it was a piece of music, it would be Just Dropped In (To See What Condition My Condition Is In).

[2026-08-25 20:50:20] John Higgs:

That sounds a wonderful card, and I should probably get one of those and put it above my laptop when I’m working, because that’s a reminder what I should be doing when I’m writing. That’s a different perspective of exactly what we’re trying to find and achieve. Excellent, so I’m delighted by that. What a great card.

[2026-08-25 20:51:51] Finbarre:

With everything being upside down and the world is seen differently, this card is making me think of David Lynch. And to my knowledge, he resisted explaining his work.

And he seemed to be keen for people to sit with uncertainty rather than try and resolve it.

When writing your most recent work, how did you understand him? Or how did you learn to kind of be attuned with David Lynch?

[2026-08-25 20:55:21] John Higgs:

Yeah, that’s exactly right, really.

He did not want to explain his work. He just wanted you to experience it and to sit with your own feelings.

He did not want there to be a sort of rational, left-brain justification for everything so that you go, “Okay, I understand what that is now,” and I can just forget it and move on because I understand it. It’s much more experiential.

I guess that book you’re referring to, which was written in a mad couple of months about a year ago now, was a, I don’t know, not so much a love letter, but just a sort of recognition that he affected us in a way that other filmmakers didn’t.

What he was doing was extraordinary and of great value, and we will miss him because there’s no one else like him.

But yes, it was just about, you know, he was not a rational man.

I think he would have loved Tarot. He was very, very comfortable with the irrational.

[2026-08-25 20:57:29] Finbarre: If you had to pick a single film made by David Lynch as your favourite (a tricky call I know), which one would you reach for?

[2026-08-25 20:58:55] John Higgs: If I HAD to - and the idea is madness - I think I would go for Mulholland Drive

[2026-08-25 20:59:12] Finbarre: My wife’s FAVOURITE!

[2026-08-25 20:59:29] John Higgs: But not yours?

[2026-08-25 21:01:06] Finbarre:

I have a confession. Yes, my name is Finbarre, I’m approaching 50, and I haven’t seen so many of his films. It is criminal. Or television programmes, for that matter. I’ve never seen Twin Peaks.

Although I did have the soundtrack to Fire Walk with Me, which, as a teenager, was my make-out tape of choice.

How many of his films have I seen? I’ve seen Blue Velvet. Loved it. And I think I would have to say Dune, in some ways, very small ways, even better than the cinematic masterpieces that are being created now.

I love that film so much because it was just so weird. It was like, I don’t know, Star Wars’ freaky cousin. To my young eyes, anyway.

John, I realise that we haven’t picked a card for the next guest. If you have a tarot deck there, could you select a card? Or, if not, if you want to pick one at random, there’s a good selection at cardmeanings.com. If you’d like to go there, pick one of those.

Because I’d like to have a present for the next person, and I’ll say it’s from you.

[2026-08-25 21:03:16] John Higgs:

Oh, Finbarre, you are very lucky to have all those Lynch films and television ahead of you.

They’re patient. They’ll sit and they’ll wait for whenever you want them. But to get to see them all and experience them all for the first time is a wonderful thing. It’s a great thing.

I would suggest that after you’ve seen Fire Walk with Me, you might not think it’s the best make-out soundtrack.

But hey, let me just look for a card. One second.

[2026-08-25 21:04:46] John Higgs: Okay having glanced out of the window and seen the nearly full moon, I can’t think of anything better to bequeath than...

[2026-08-25 21:04:56] John Higgs:

[2026-08-25 21:05:04] John Higgs:

[2026-08-25 21:06:02] Finbarre: From the Thoth deck I see!

[2026-08-25 21:06:28] John Higgs: Every fool’s house must have a deck! (- Finbarre: 😂 -)

[2026-08-25 21:08:50] Finbarre:

John, thank you so much for joining me on Tarot DMs. This weekend when I delve my hand into my wife’s DVD collection and pull out a David Lynch classic, I will raise my popcorn bucket to you and thank you for the recommendation.

[2026-08-25 21:09:31] John Higgs:

I hope you enjoy it, Finbarre. Thanks for having me.

Meet previous guests on Tarot DMs

James Crow is a British film director and screenwriter whose work focuses primarily on horror. He has directed six internationally released feature films, including Curse of the Witching Tree, with two more awaiting release. His films have screened at FrightFest and appeared on Netflix. Before moving into directing, he wrote genre films acquired by Lionsgate, StudioCanal and eOne.

Simon Cluett is a writer and filmmaker whose work spans horror, thriller and crime. His most recent novel, the disturbing page-turner Minotaur, was published by Bloodhound Books. He is also the author of the horror anthology Tales from the Dark Library. Cluett has directed several short films and is currently working on his third novel.

Find out more about Harbinger and other releases by Shogun Films here

21/08/2026, 19:18 - Finbarre: Welcome to Tarot DMs with Finbarre, I’m joined by director and producer James Crow and screenwriter Simon Cluett to talk about Harbinger, a new British supernatural horror built around one of the more unnerving uses of Tarot you could imagine - a sinister fairground fortune-telling machine whose cards appear to predict fatal outcomes.

This film draws on the atmosphere of old-school British horror. Tarot, fate and the mechanics of fortune-telling come together into a story where knowing what comes next may be worse than not knowing at all. Thank you both for joining me!

21/08/2026, 19:18 - Simon Cluett: Good to be here - be gentle!

21/08/2026, 19:19 - Finbarre: “Absolutely no promises” says the deck

21/08/2026, 19:19 - James Crow: Thanks for having us! Just be aware we know a killer fortune telling machine so go safe 😂

21/08/2026, 19:20 - Finbarre: While I’m shuffling the cards here and getting them thoroughly mixed up, can you give me an idea of how you two crossed paths?

21/08/2026, 19:20 - James Crow: Simon works a lot for shogun films and we’ve both worked with Jonathan a while now

21/08/2026, 19:21 - Simon Cluett: I’ve been aware of James for many years now but Harbinger is the first time we’ve properly collaborated

21/08/2026, 19:21 - James Crow: It was a good one to work on for the first time!

21/08/2026, 19:22 - Simon Cluett: For sure! Nice to see the fruits of our labour getting some good reviews!

21/08/2026, 19:23 - James Crow: I helped produce and work on some material by Simon for Doctor Plague and Knightfall before Harbinger too

21/08/2026, 19:25 - Finbarre: I have to ask, do fairgrounds creep you out? I have loved them since watching The Lost Boys back in the 80s. Did you visit any locations and feel that inner “Nope”?

21/08/2026, 19:25 - Finbarre: Yes, that’s a bonus question - I’m curious

21/08/2026, 19:26 - Simon Cluett: I haven’t been to one for many many years. I don’t scare easily… if anything I would love to have a truly X Files moment, be that at a funfair, a so called haunted house or deep in the woods.

21/08/2026, 19:27 - Simon Cluett: “I want to believe”… to quote Fox Mulder

21/08/2026, 19:27 - James Crow: I love the Lost Boys film. I feel fairgrounds have always felt more American. UK tends to have seaside attractions more. But there’s something cool about anywhere the creates childhood nostalgia. I think the innocence of fairgrounds like clowns lends itself to horror

21/08/2026, 19:28 - Simon Cluett: I’ve always enjoyed creeping my kids out with suggestions of killer clowns on the loose, living in the sewers etc

21/08/2026, 19:29 - Finbarre: Absolutely with you on the American thing, the What The Butler Saw-type machines down on Brighton’s penny arcade were a whole different kind of sinister.

21/08/2026, 19:29 - Finbarre: Right, first card time.

21/08/2026, 19:29 - Finbarre: Are you ready?

21/08/2026, 19:29 - Simon Cluett: Yep

21/08/2026, 19:29 - James Crow: Yes

21/08/2026, 19:29 - Finbarre:

21/08/2026, 19:29 - Finbarre: The card that represents tradition and the knowledge handed down by those who came before us.

21/08/2026, 19:30 - James Crow: They could be the film makers who came before us to create a retro horror

21/08/2026, 19:31 - James Crow: Harbinger has a lot of respect and traditions of classic films

21/08/2026, 19:31 - Simon Cluett: Lots of retro influences in Harbinger

21/08/2026, 19:31 - James Crow: Someone recently compared it to Creepshow which I found a massive compliment

21/08/2026, 19:31 - Finbarre: I have a confession. I have yet to see Creepshow. Yes, I know.

21/08/2026, 19:32 - Finbarre: The poster freaked me out as a kid.

21/08/2026, 19:32 - James Crow: I only saw it last year! So you are not in bad company

21/08/2026, 19:32 - Simon Cluett: And Hammer… even Doctor Who! Again, huge compliments

21/08/2026, 19:32 - James Crow: And it was nice to have Carol Ann Ford in the film too

21/08/2026, 19:33 - Finbarre: That is a name that rings a bell...

21/08/2026, 19:33 - James Crow: I think it has a nod to doctor who because it was all practical on a budget!

21/08/2026, 19:33 - Finbarre: Wait. SUSAN?

21/08/2026, 19:33 - James Crow: Yes the one and only original!

21/08/2026, 19:34 - Simon Cluett: The Unearthly Child herself

21/08/2026, 19:34 - James Crow: I hope she still gets a chance to come back. Let’s hope doctor who isn’t out to tender too long. I may put a pitch in 😂

21/08/2026, 19:36 - Finbarre: Going back to The Hierophant I have to ask - which were the rules of old-school horror you tried to preserve?

21/08/2026, 19:36 - James Crow: Practical effects was a big one

21/08/2026, 19:36 - Finbarre: Fake blood, prosthetics, that type of thing?

21/08/2026, 19:37 - James Crow: Yes. And the creepy house was a top 10 which was found. It was a great location

21/08/2026, 19:37 - James Crow: Every great horror needs a great location

21/08/2026, 19:37 - James Crow: It was fun lighting it up in the style of hammer horror

21/08/2026, 19:38 - Simon Cluett: I adapted a short story by Harry Boxley which very much played by the rules of old school horror films, especially from the 80s. Those were my informative years so playing in that sandpit was a lot of fun.

21/08/2026, 19:39 - Finbarre: Did you deliberately pick elements like high-contrast shadows, saturated colour etc or did you just picture that vibe which now must be a collective memory of how horror should be?

21/08/2026, 19:40 - Finbarre: Also, I would love to see a still of the house in question if you have any shots of it.

21/08/2026, 19:40 - James Crow: I went out of the way with Director of Photography and gave him some examples. Suspiria was one. There’s some scenes that look like classic Italian cult cinema

21/08/2026, 19:41 - Simon Cluett: Shooting in what I’m told is a genuinely haunted old Manor House helped. Lots of shadows… dust… cobwebs and creepy angles.

21/08/2026, 19:41 - Finbarre: Both the original and remake were far prettier than they needed to be, utterly gorgeous

21/08/2026, 19:47 - Finbarre: Given that you will both have a fascination with all things spooky, do either of you have a tarot deck to hand?

21/08/2026, 19:47 - Simon Cluett: I have an unopened pack

21/08/2026, 19:47 - Finbarre: I feel there is a story there. Unopened you say?

21/08/2026, 19:48 - Simon Cluett: Yes. It arrived yesterday. Just a cheap one from Amazon.

21/08/2026, 19:48 - Simon Cluett: No big spooky story I’m afraid. I wish.

21/08/2026, 19:49 - Finbarre: Not YET

21/08/2026, 19:49 - James Crow: I used to have a pack many years ago. They were eerily quite correct

21/08/2026, 19:49 - James Crow: Maybe hence I no longer have them

21/08/2026, 19:49 - James Crow: I also have two Ouija boards that haven’t been used in a while

21/08/2026, 19:49 - Finbarre: Simon if you’re happy to open your deck and draw a card for you both, I would gladly make that your question

21/08/2026, 19:50 - Simon Cluett: Sure

21/08/2026, 19:50 - Simon Cluett:

21/08/2026, 19:50 - Finbarre: Two? That could be the best first date idea I have heard of!

21/08/2026, 19:51 - Finbarre: I like the clarity of this one

21/08/2026, 19:52 - Finbarre: What are you making of this card, James?

21/08/2026, 19:52 - Simon Cluett: Don’t say “a book mark”

21/08/2026, 19:53 - James Crow: Maybe the 4 wands allude to the 4 supporting charecters who play the crew

21/08/2026, 19:53 - James Crow: The makeup artist, camera man, sound and specialist

21/08/2026, 19:54 - James Crow: The first four deaths before the bigger roles start to fall

21/08/2026, 19:55 - James Crow: We see the 4 of them for the first time gathered around a car in first scene of them

21/08/2026, 19:56 - Finbarre: Traditionally it’s less murdery and it’s a great card to have, extremely good energy and the card of celebrating good times too. One for both of you, at what point did you think WE MADE THIS!

21/08/2026, 19:57 - James Crow: For me it was when I first saw the harbinger come to life and start killing. Finally realised the film had arrived

21/08/2026, 19:58 - James Crow: Seeing it brought to life for the first time made the film become very real

21/08/2026, 19:58 - Simon Cluett: I visited the set late into the shoot, by which time most of the cast had been bumped off. It was a great experience meeting those left, and James of course. That’s when it felt real. Up until then it was lots of emails, late night writing… rewriting… and more rewriting.

21/08/2026, 20:00 - James Crow: Yes pre-production can always feel a state of flux and in some ways preparing for the moment. It’s when cameras start rolling and you see footage in the can you really feel like film has begun

21/08/2026, 20:00 - Simon Cluett: Seeing it on the big screen for the first time a couple of weeks ago was also a great experience. It played really well and the audience loved it.

21/08/2026, 20:00 - James Crow: But so much work goes into pre-production to make it happen

21/08/2026, 20:00 - James Crow: The reactions to the cinema showings have been fantastic

21/08/2026, 20:01 - James Crow: It really plays well on the big screen

21/08/2026, 20:01 - James Crow: As does the sound design

21/08/2026, 20:01 - Finbarre: What is a good reaction to a horror film out of interest?

21/08/2026, 20:01 - Simon Cluett: I remember seeing an early cut and knew we had something a bit special. That was even before sound effects, music, grading etc. That all makes a huge difference.

21/08/2026, 20:02 - James Crow: Some of the deaths get genuine repulsion. One in particular without naming spoilers! Anytime you get a reaction from an audience it’s a great feeling

21/08/2026, 20:03 - James Crow: There’s one death in particular. The first actually outside of the opening sequence. It got a great reaction

21/08/2026, 20:04 - James Crow: The death of Kathryn

21/08/2026, 20:04 - Simon Cluett: The film is also quite funny in places. It was very satisfying to hear the crowd laugh… quickly followed by much squirming and yelping.

21/08/2026, 20:04 - Finbarre: Can’t type. Laughing too much at the idea of you two fist punching the air at the yelps.

21/08/2026, 20:05 - James Crow: It has some gallows humor for sure

21/08/2026, 20:06 - Finbarre: Well, it’s funny you should say that. Your third card is coming up and this one was given to you by Boo Miller - actor, comedian and voiceover artist most recently on the Zero Parades for Dead Spies

21/08/2026, 20:06 - Finbarre: It is...

21/08/2026, 20:06 - Finbarre: Yes, it’s that one

21/08/2026, 20:06 - Finbarre:

21/08/2026, 20:07 - Simon Cluett: Noooooooooo!

21/08/2026, 20:07 - Finbarre: Sorry not sorry

21/08/2026, 20:07 - Simon Cluett: Run away!

21/08/2026, 20:07 - Finbarre: Can’t, he has a horse. It’s DEATH question time.

21/08/2026, 20:08 - James Crow: Which was the most fun death to write?

21/08/2026, 20:08 - Simon Cluett: This is where you reassure us that the Death card doesn’t actually represent death… right?

21/08/2026, 20:09 - Simon Cluett: Barney, the camera man’s death for sure lol. That one made me wince!

21/08/2026, 20:10 - Finbarre: pats You know it’s just about transformation. It’s OK. Andsometimesdeath.

21/08/2026, 20:10 - James Crow: The most fun to film was Chris with the creepy bathtub

21/08/2026, 20:10 - James Crow: We lit it like nightmare on elm street

21/08/2026, 20:10 - James Crow: This was also the day Simon was on set

21/08/2026, 20:10 - Finbarre: 70s avocado?

21/08/2026, 20:11 - Simon Cluett: Yes, to quote a song from Hamilton, I was in the room when it happened

21/08/2026, 20:12 - Finbarre: Last tarot question - how do you make the deaths in your film feel like part of the story instead of some kind of macabre tally?

21/08/2026, 20:13 - James Crow: In harbinger they were all foretold by the cards! Can’t argue with the cards

21/08/2026, 20:15 - Simon Cluett: The original short story had some big set piece deaths that were great fun but a mite too ambitious for the budget. I worked closely with Jonathon Sothcott, the producer, to scale them down, make them more grounded, and tied to story and character

21/08/2026, 20:15 - Finbarre: Did any of the deaths make you wince on set?

21/08/2026, 20:17 - James Crow: It’s hard on set to get lost in the moment because there’s so much technical involvement. You are focusing on so many different factors from a technical viewpoint

21/08/2026, 20:17 - James Crow: The camera, lighting, makeup effects, electrical (as in case of harbinger with mask and eyes). You are so busy looking at it from so many different viewpoints

21/08/2026, 20:18 - James Crow: The scenes come alive once they have the grade and music and you can enjoy knowing the technical is over!

21/08/2026, 20:19 - Simon Cluett: My experience on set was very different. By then, my job was done so I had zero of any value to add. Unlike James, I could just sit back and enjoy the carnage… and try not to get in the way.

21/08/2026, 20:19 - Finbarre: “Enjoy the carnage”

21/08/2026, 20:20 - James Crow: Film sets are always carnage!

21/08/2026, 20:21 - James Crow: It’s all about surviving with the film intact

21/08/2026, 20:22 - James Crow: If I was to ever relate the film making experience to a film I’d say it’s probably like the first two Evil Dead films but more traumatic

21/08/2026, 20:22 - Finbarre: It sounds like so much fun to have created! Simon, as you have the cards of fate in your hands there - could you draw one of them for the next guest? Bless them or condemn them with your tarot magic.

21/08/2026, 20:23 - Simon Cluett: Now I have an image in my head of James fleeing a burning building while clutching an SD card (or whatever you call those things)

21/08/2026, 20:23 - Simon Cluett: Ooh… it’s a good one

21/08/2026, 20:24 - Finbarre: Do tell

21/08/2026, 20:24 - Simon Cluett:

21/08/2026, 20:24 - James Crow: A great card

21/08/2026, 20:24 - Finbarre: Odin’s card! One that delves into uncomfortable truths - great choice there.

21/08/2026, 20:24 - James Crow: This is why I rarely play with tarot cards, Ouija boards or old creepy fortune telling machines!

21/08/2026, 20:25 - Simon Cluett: Meanwhile I laugh in the face of danger… drop ice cubes down the collar of fear

21/08/2026, 20:25 - Simon Cluett: I think that’s from Blackaddder. Probably misquoting, horribly

21/08/2026, 20:27 - Simon Cluett: I’m sitting in a chalk pentagram as I type

21/08/2026, 20:27 - James Crow: Was it the first blackadder series? A greatly misunderstood masterpiece. I loved the witchfinder episode

21/08/2026, 20:27 - James Crow: It’s how I sleep

21/08/2026, 20:28 - Finbarre: Thank you so much chaps for appearing on Tarot DMs today, hope the cards weren’t too fierce.

21/08/2026, 20:28 - James Crow: Thanks for having us

21/08/2026, 20:28 - Simon Cluett: It was a pleasure!

21/08/2026, 20:29 - Simon Cluett: Ditto

21/08/2026, 20:29 - James Crow: You should go visit the harbinger now and take a card! Your turn

21/08/2026, 20:29 - Finbarre: Gosh no, those things are dangerous

21/08/2026, 20:29 - Simon Cluett: No, not at all. Apart from the whole DEATH thing.

21/08/2026, 20:30 - Simon Cluett:

21/08/2026, 20:30 - James Crow: He’s misunderstood that Harbinger! Just trying to have some fun

21/08/2026, 20:35 - Finbarre: My thanks to James and Simon for joining me for this Tarot DMs and for allowing the cards into the world of Harbinger.

There is something satisfying about using Tarot to interview the people behind a film in which Tarot itself becomes the source of suspense and good old fashioned horror.

Harbinger is directed by James Crow, written by Simon Cluett from a story by Harry Boxley, and produced by Jonathan Sothcott.

Until the next draw!

Meet previous guests on Tarot DMs

Boo Miller is the voice of the Narrator and the Skills in ZA/UM’s Zero Parades: For Dead Spies. A London-based actor, improviser and voiceover artist, Boo is known for her work across television, theatre, commercials and video games. Her credits include Bridgerton, The Stand Up Sketch Show, Ten Dates and PAW Patrol. She has also lent her voice to a variety of toys, including three different Furbies.

Find out more about Boo Miller’s work at boomiller.com

18/08/2026, 20:02 - Finbarre:

Welcome to Tarot DMs with Finbarre. Today, I’m joined by Boo Miller, the comedian and voice artist whose latest job puts her right inside the fractured world of international espionage.

Boo is the narrator of Zero Parades: For Dead Spies, a new role-playing game from the studio behind Disco Elysium. She voices troubled spy Hershel Wilk, as well as the competing thoughts and skills inside her head.

Away from Zero Parades: For Dead Spies, Boo has appeared in Bridgerton and The Stand Up Sketch Show, starred in the interactive game Ten Dates, and lent her voice to everything from PAW Patrol to Furby.

Today, though, she gets a different kind of role-playing system: three tarot cards, three questions. We have no idea where they’ll take us.

This is Boo Miller. Hello!

18/08/2026, 20:03 - Boo Miller: Hello hello Finbarre thank you so much for having me this is so exciting!

18/08/2026, 20:04 - Boo Miller:

Also, it’s so funny hearing someone call me a comedian because I just do improv every now and again on a Friday and I’m like a comedy actor. But yeah, being called a comedian is so weird because if I had to be myself on stage, I think I’d poop my pants. So yeah, I pretend to be other people instead.

18/08/2026, 20:04 - Boo Miller:

But you’re right, I should just accept the title because I was introduced as a comedian the other day before an improv set.

And I was like, oh, this is me now.

18/08/2026, 20:04 - Finbarre:

This one is a freebie and this isn’t a tarot related question.

But when I contacted you and said, I have these cards, would you like to come along and discover what they have to say?

What on earth possessed you to bring you here?

18/08/2026, 20:06 - Boo Miller:

You know what, I really got into tarot during COVID. I think like a lot of people, it was a time that I needed to tap back into my spirituality.

I was doing it a lot then. And I’m not gonna lie, just before this session, I literally picked up my tarot deck and wiped off a layer of dust off of my Mystic Mondays tarot set.

But yeah, I’m here because this kind of thing really interests me. I do it with my girlfriends a lot.

But my kind of solo practice has really gone out the window recently. I think this, the concept of this format is just so, so fun. And I can’t wait to see where we go with it.

18/08/2026, 20:08 - Finbarre:

Before we get started with your first card, I do have an ask. Now, I understand that way back when, you represented three different Furbies or Furblets. Am I right in thinking one was called something like Sno-Way, Dah-Tee and Mer-May? Something like that?

What I would like you to do is every time we look at a card, and sadly, I don’t have a Furby Tarot deck. I did look for one, and I know one was half completed, but I don’t have one in my collection. I would like, as we go over it, for you to tell me what that card would be in Furbish. Are you up for that?

18/08/2026, 20:09 - Boo Miller:

Yes, 100%. I can do some Furbish translation for you.

18/08/2026, 20:09 - Finbarre:

I am so glad you’re on a similar wavelength of nonsense. Right, your first card.

18/08/2026, 20:09 - Finbarre:

18/08/2026, 20:10 - Finbarre:

You get the Hierophant, this month’s anchor card. What vibes do you get?

18/08/2026, 20:11 - Finbarre: Not sure if Furbish completely complements this one, but I’m dying to know.

18/08/2026, 20:11 - Boo Miller:

(Furbish exclamation)

18/08/2026, 20:11 - Boo Miller:

That’s so stupid. I love that. The Hierophant is actually my birth card. I think I’m a Taurus. I’m 2nd of May is my birthday. I’ve just seen you put the laughing emoji at my last voice note.

18/08/2026, 20:13 - Boo Miller:

This is really interesting. I’m just looking at my little booklet now, and it’s talking about tradition, conventionalism and honouring rituals, which I think is really interesting in terms of getting back into this practice, first of all.

But it also talks about being drawn towards community. It is kind of strange because I have just left that, having finished working on Zero Parades for a year and a half.

As an actor, you’re on jobs that may be very fleeting. If you’re on a commercial job, you’re there for a couple of days. If you’re doing a short film, it might be a bit longer. But being on a job that lasts a year and a half doesn’t happen very often, unless you’re doing something like a TV series and you’re there for a very long time.

I really built a sense of community while I was working on Zero Parades. I went into the office every day, saw the same people and worked with the same directors. Directors, rather, because I worked with two directors and two sound engineers.

I’m trying to find out what that does for you in terms of ritual and routine, and how to find that again now that I’ve lost it.

I just feel so lonely lately. I think I’ve only officially been off it for about a week because they had me in for pickups on Zero Parades last week. But I’m trying to settle back into what it means to have my own rituals and traditions.

18/08/2026, 20:16 - Finbarre:

Going back into your past a little, I know you’ve trained in theatre and dance and improv and performance capture.

What’s a rule or piece of conventional acting wisdom you’ve been taught, but now you happily ignore?

I’m curious about how you break the rules.

18/08/2026, 20:19 - Boo Miller:

Something that I’ve been taught that I’d happily ignore? I am such a rule follower, which is the funny thing about this card. But I definitely intellectualise a lot.

One thing I try to let go of completely, especially when doing scripted work, is the preparation. You do the work beforehand and then trust that all of it, and all of that technical build-up, is enough. You just have to trust it and free yourself up to be more present in the moment.

That’s why I love improv so much. It’s part of the training I’ve done in later life. I say “later life”. I’m 28. Shut up.

What I mean is that it’s the training I do now and continue to do. I had more traditional training, where you’re looking at things like script analysis or even Laban efforts, which I used for Zero Parades. But I can talk about that in a second.

It’s about getting back to being present in the moment. You really have to listen when you’re doing improv onstage because, as soon as you start pre-empting anything, you’re in danger of blocking the scene.

I’ve tried to incorporate more of a “yes, and” attitude into my life since doing improv training, as well as into my work in general. I did a lot of preparation for Zero Parades in terms of Laban efforts and the Skills. But when you’re actually there, I think a lot of it is simply about having fun and making really creative choices.

If there was ever a day on Zero Parades when I was feeling a bit insular and didn’t want to try anything new, I would come away thinking, “Oh, I wish I’d played with that a bit more.”

Breaking away from the rules and introducing play into everything I approach character-wise has been super, super useful for me.

18/08/2026, 20:22 - Finbarre:

Oh Boo introducing play is a wonderful idea. And when it comes to the wild card, this is normally a card I would shuffle for you.

You would reach out from wherever it is you are and you’d go, that one. Except this time it’s going to be different. This time you’ve got the cards with you.

You’re going to shuffle them and I’m going to tell you when to stop.

18/08/2026, 20:22 - Boo Miller: Yes chef!

18/08/2026, 20:23 - Finbarre: Maybe...

18/08/2026, 20:23 - Finbarre: No. That’s a terrible card.

18/08/2026, 20:23 - Finbarre: THAT ONE

18/08/2026, 20:23 - Boo Miller:

18/08/2026, 20:24 - Finbarre: Oh hello you jaunty gent!

18/08/2026, 20:24 - Boo Miller: Quite the pose

18/08/2026, 20:24 - Boo Miller:

(Furbish exclamation)

18/08/2026, 20:25 - Boo Miller: The official translation

18/08/2026, 20:25 - Finbarre: I’m very glad to hear that you’re using high Furbish. That’d be from your days at the Furby embassy?

18/08/2026, 20:26 - Boo Miller: Correct

18/08/2026, 20:26 - Boo Miller: A nearly forgotten language, there are few of us that remain

18/08/2026, 20:27 - Finbarre:

Unfortunately, I learned French for GCSE, so we’ll need to continue with English.

So I’m looking up the Mystic Mondays deck.

And my understanding is that the Knight of Cups is a romantic, intuitive charmer.

Emotionally led, dreamy and expressive. Could be a romantic approach.

An invitation, strong chemistry, somebody following the heart very deliberately.

Perhaps it’s the card of kissing.

And I can see that the key words attached to it are romantic and elevation and adoration.

18/08/2026, 20:30 - Boo Miller:

This is so cute because I am getting married in two months to the love of my life. We’ve been together since we were 15 and it will be our 13 year anniversary on our wedding day. So this is nice. I just feel very loved up at the moment. I’m in the midst of wedding planning and I am just super, super excited for that day. Yeah. So that’s where a lot of my focus is at the moment, but I think that’s okay. And, you know, I think it’s really interesting thinking about a work life balance and I’ve just done very, very hard work for like a year and a half and I am very ready to take some time for me and my partner and just to step into this new chapter in our life.

18/08/2026, 20:31 - Finbarre: Congratulations!!! Which is the signature flower for your big day, in the decorations/bouquet etc?

18/08/2026, 20:32 - Boo Miller:

Thank you so much. So, so excited. But yeah, we’re doing a lot of orchids and amaranth, just a lot of structural stuff. We obviously are getting married in October, so we wanted it to feel autumnal without it feeling too Halloween-y. So we’ve got lots of like deep reds and deep browns and blush pinks. That’s the vibe.

18/08/2026, 20:34 - Finbarre:

Congratulations again, Boo, and I hope your day is magnificent. I’d like to take the idea of romance. Just walk that over to your career. And the first thing I thought of was a game that I played. It was a few years ago. Ten Dates, I believe it’s called. And it’s a game about dating and romantic possibility.

Do you think actors need to believe in the emotional reality of a romance during their performance, no matter how artificial or peculiar the set may be?

18/08/2026, 20:34 - Boo Miller: Thank you thank you!

18/08/2026, 20:38 - Boo Miller:

I think for me, it’s less about believing in the romantic reality and more just connecting with your scene partner on a human level.

Having been in a relationship since I was 15, I think it’s always really important to maintain those boundaries at work.

You know, you might have chemistry with someone, but just in a sense that you get the human being and you might, you know, have a nice lunch together and have good chat.

But at the end of the day, you know that you’re two artists that are trying to create this sense of warmth and love.

And I think in the drama that came out recently, I think Robert Pattinson and Zendaya like proved that you don’t have to be this weird kind of, we’re so flirty on a press tour.

And yeah, I think it’s not necessary for me anyway. It’s not part of my process.

18/08/2026, 20:39 - Finbarre: Coming back to the present AND THE VERY EXCITING IMMEDIATE FUTURE - I have to know, where are you heading for your honeymoon?

18/08/2026, 20:39 - Boo Miller: We are going to the Seychelles!!

18/08/2026, 20:40 - Finbarre: I have to confess, I know nothing about.... Googles

18/08/2026, 20:40 - Finbarre: What. My gosh.

18/08/2026, 20:40 - Finbarre: That’s rather stunning.

18/08/2026, 20:40 - Boo Miller: Big granite rocks, blue sea, very pretty 🥹

18/08/2026, 20:41 - Boo Miller:

Yeah, we just thought we’re never going to, this is the only honeymoon we’re going to have, so we might as well go somewhere that we would never go again.

18/08/2026, 20:42 - Finbarre: We’re two cards down and have one left. The Gift card. This one was left for you by the writer and linguist Madelaine Gnewski. Are you ready?

18/08/2026, 20:43 - Boo Miller: Ready!

18/08/2026, 20:43 - Finbarre:

18/08/2026, 20:43 - Finbarre: Yes, a slight change of pace from the last one for sure.

18/08/2026, 20:46 - Boo Miller:

Yes, for sure. I think this goes back to what I was saying earlier about the transition from being surrounded by so many people day to day when you’re on a job, to the reality of being an actor and spending a lot of the day sitting at your desk or recording self-tapes.

I do a lot of voiceover self-tapes as well. It isn’t necessarily isolating, but it is very much a solo adventure. You’re sitting there with your microphone and might churn out seven in a day. Then you start to crave that connection.

I live in a shared house at the moment, so when you bump into someone in the kitchen, it’s like, “Oh my God, hi! How are you?”

A lot of us in the house are actors as well, so it’s really nice to know that we’re all in the same boat.

For me, it has been about embracing those moments of calm and quiet when I have time for self-reflection and can reset after a long job. It’s always the case that, when you’re really busy, you want a break. But when you have a potentially quieter period, as I’m having right now, you constantly feel guilty about enjoying it.

I’m spending more time with my partner and my friends, and I think that’s OK. If you’re a creative, it’s so, so important to sit with yourself and be comfortable doing that, rather than constantly chasing the next thing.

18/08/2026, 20:48 - Boo Miller:

I’ve also just been thinking about creative burnout recently and I have a few other creative friends where we’re really trying to encourage each other to fill up our own cup so that we have more to give creatively.

And just, yeah, to take that time to look after yourself. It’s okay to do that.

18/08/2026, 20:50 - Boo Miller:

Also, one of my absolute icons, Meryl Streep, says that half of being an actor is just living and going to the theatre and going to the cinema and watching live music and going out for dinner with friends and watching people interact on the tube.

That is all part of our craft and it’s okay to just sit with that and not feel like you have to be in class every week or you have to be doing a show every week in order to be valid in your practice.

18/08/2026, 20:50 - Finbarre:

Of course it’s OK to do that because you’re getting married! My goodness. I can’t imagine how Zen-like you must be at the moment. You sound as though you’re kind of at one with everything.

I know that, around this stage of looking forward to getting married, it’s usually spreadsheets, planning and chaos galore. So it sounds like you’re making the best use of that time.

I’m just looking at The Hermit card more closely. I’ve got a conspiracy theory about this one.

When Pamela Colman Smith was given instructions by A. E. Waite to produce these tarot cards, which hadn’t been done in this way before, she was churning out around three a week.

I reckon she got one of her mates from the Lyceum Theatre to pop on a beard and a cloak, probably from something like The Merchant of Venice.

If you look closely at the card, the hands are too young. The face is too young. She could draw old men, and she did so on plenty of other cards. But this is definitely a woman dressed up as a little old dude.

I think it’s delightful.

18/08/2026, 20:52 - Finbarre:

I know time is running away, so I have a very quick question to add on the end.

Because you have The Hermit holding aloft this lamp to illuminate the path ahead, and symbolically the path is dark and they can only see just a few steps in front of them, what parts of your career have you pursued because it felt right rather than being the obvious path?

Have you made any choices that everyone’s gone “what??”

18/08/2026, 20:53 - Boo Miller:

I guess doing improv class was the thing that was definitely not on the path that I thought I was going down. I was doing a lot of comedy acting, but I think just the idea of having to make something up on the spot absolutely terrified me.

And I’ve only been improvising properly for the last like two years, but I started training maybe four years ago and I did a show the other week with three teachers that teach at the school that I trained at.

And I had a moment where I was like, oh my gosh, I’m getting paid to do this. And I did not think I would be here. And what that’s unlocked for me. And I didn’t know that I would have improviser on my kind of skill set.

It was just something I was doing to make sure that I was equipped for auditions to make sure I wasn’t, you know, getting really nervous when they say in the room, we need you to improvise this scene or we want you to go off book a bit. So that’s one way.

18/08/2026, 20:57 - Boo Miller:

And then in the other sense, voice acting, I really didn’t expect to get into. I kind of had done a bit of corporate stuff and then got in with the studio, So Sound and did Furby. They then referred me to do Paw Patrol and I did Paw Patrol.

But at that point, just before Zero Parades, I really hadn’t done much work using an adult voice. It was either these weird characters or children, basically doing children’s voices.

So Mikee got in touch with me, Mikee Goodman, who works in casting at ZA/UM and is one of the voice actors that was on Zero Parades. And yeah, he just does casting. He reached out and said, you auditioned for our last game, Disco Elysium, Extended Cut. Obviously, I didn’t get that job.

But then he had me audition for three characters on Zero Parades. One was Yana, Melita, and the other was Hershel’s mum, who isn’t even a character anymore. I think she’s been removed as a voice character.

But yeah, and then he got back in touch with me and said, we really like what you’re doing with Yana. Can you do the Yana voice, but read the narrator lines? So I did that. And then had about five or six different demos sent back and forth with tweaks to Mikee.

And then came in for a test session and signed a contract in February 2025. And I really did not know what I was getting into at that point. And I think it was good that I didn’t know. Just because it was such a journey.

And it’s such a task to make sure that someone that’s playing a narrative RPG game goes on this journey with you.

And, you know, hopping around in contexts every day and hopping around in the skills and the voices because there were 16 different voices. It taught me so, so much.

And now voice acting is a part of my everyday life. Like, I’m so, so grateful to be involved with it. And I also love gaming and video gaming. And I’m just so happy that this is a big path of my career that’s open for me.

18/08/2026, 21:00 - Boo Miller:

I think I said that Mikee did voiceover for Zero Parades in that last one, which he did, but I meant to say Disco Elysium because he is bloody amazing and he did, yeah, such amazing work in both.

But yeah, another direction I didn’t expect to go down was kind of the tabletop game mastering route. Obviously, ZA/UM got me to do a pen and paper session, which is we basically got other voice actors that were involved in the game.

And I ran a, yeah, like a D&D type session. And yeah, that was so, so fun.

I play a lot of Dungeons and Dragons with my friends and that’s how I chill out on the weekends. So to get to do that for work, I just totally didn’t expect it.

And I also didn’t expect them to trust me. And I was pooping myself. I was so, so nervous, like more nervous for that filming day than I was for my A-levels

But yeah, it was so, so fun and I had such a good time and I really hope that I get to do a bit more kind of like role playing as part of my career going forward.

18/08/2026, 21:00 - Finbarre: As The Hermit trudges across the mountaintops, the wintry gale howling about the lantern stole away the sound of the card’s true Furbish name. What was it again?

18/08/2026, 21:00 - Boo Miller:

(Furbish exclamation)

18/08/2026, 21:01 - Finbarre:

Boo, thank you so much for joining me on Tarot DMs. It has been a delight, a peculiar one, but a delight nevertheless. Which card will you be leaving the next guest from your deck?

18/08/2026, 21:01 - Boo Miller:

omg

18/08/2026, 21:01 - Boo Miller:

(Furbish exclamation)

18/08/2026, 21:02 - Finbarre: (Can’t type, literally dying here)

18/08/2026, 21:02 - Boo Miller:

I’ve heard that the Death card isn’t so bad and there are good things about it, right? Right?

18/08/2026, 21:03 - Boo Miller:

Ah, Finbarre, thank you so much for having me. I’ve had such a good time and the hour has flown by.

18/08/2026, 21:04 - Finbarre:

That was Boo Miller, following three tarot cards.

You can hear Boo in Zero Parades: for Dead Spies, bringing Hershel Wilk and the many voices inside her head to life.

More conversations, more cards and more unexpected turns await at TarotDMs.com.

Meet previous guests on Tarot DMs

Madelaine Gnewski is a writer and linguist whose work has appeared in a number of literary magazines in the UK and the US. Influenced by her therapeutic training, she explores family dynamics, memory, attachment, and the narratives people create around intimacy and belonging. She writes experimental, psychologically driven fiction and creative nonfiction.

Follow her on Substack: madelainegnewski.substack.com

16/08/2026, 14:34 - Finbarre:

Welcome to Tarot DMs with Finbarre where we use three tarot cards to explore the process of a fabulous creative.

Madelaine Gnewski is a writer, a linguist, whose work has appeared on Friends on the Shelf, South 85 Journal, The Hemlock Journal, and elsewhere.

Her fiction and creative non-fiction explore family, memory, and the stories people construct around intimacy. For this Tarot DMs conversation, we’ll let three cards lead the way.

16/08/2026, 14:35 - Maddi Gnewski:

Hello Finbarre! Thank you so much for having me on Tarot DMs. I am really excited and also quite nervous, but mostly excited to see where all the cards will take us today.

16/08/2026, 14:36 - Finbarre:

Maddi, there is no need to be nervous. I’m sure we have exceptionally well-behaved cards today. And of course, there are no bad cards, apart from the bad cards. But the odds are in your favour!

What experience do you have of tarot?

16/08/2026, 14:37 - Maddi Gnewski:

Well, so this is the thing: I only started reading tarot about eight months ago.

For the last five years, I’ve been listening to tarot readers on YouTube. I was fascinated by how they could create stories around just two or three cards. At one point, I don’t really know why, I decided that maybe I should try it. And so I did.

I bought a new tarot deck, and something actually happened. When I touched it, there was this energy. I felt very connected to the deck, and I started reading and became completely obsessed with it.

But I am new to it. I’ve got a beginner’s deck and still need a lot of support, but I feel very connected to tarot. It’s amazing.

16/08/2026, 14:38 - Maddi Gnewski:

How long have you been reading Tarot? I’ve always wanted to ask you that, by the way. I’ve been following you for a while. I’d love to know.

16/08/2026, 14:40 - Finbarre:

Ahem This is a picture of me from 1999 when I was reading cards to students in basement bars in Manchester round the Oxford Road

16/08/2026, 14:41 - Maddi Gnewski:

I love it. That is amazing. So it’s fair to say you’ve been doing this for a while. So you know what you’re doing. That is a great picture.

16/08/2026, 14:42 - Finbarre:

A Manchester artist called Melodie Neesom somehow captured my likeness in this picture, and I like it very much. It hangs on my wall, but I suspect that it’s probably cursed.

I’ve been reading cards since about, I want to say, 1993, when I went to Brighton with my mum and my nan. We ended up in one of these mystical shops, which had a beautiful smell of incense as you walked around. Now, the name of the shop escapes me, and it will come to me. It had a picture of a unicorn. It might actually have been called The Unicorn.

I got myself the standard Rider-Waite-Smith deck and tore it open on the train back to London. And you’re right, I was looking at each card in turn with rapt attention. I think my grandmother was slightly disapproving, but she was a very devout Methodist.

But you’re right, there is just something—I don’t want to say compelling—but there’s something mesmerising about the artwork.

16/08/2026, 14:44 - Finbarre: Thirty three years on I’m still reading from the same deck!

16/08/2026, 14:45 - Maddi Gnewski:

Yeah, there really is. I never had a plan when I started reading tarot. I didn’t even know how I would use it. I just thought maybe I would use it every now and again for myself.

But it’s become such a big part of my creative process, and I could never have seen that coming. It’s like you say: the imagery is so mesmerising. Every time I pull a card, even if I’ve seen it before, there’s something new that I notice based on the context and the question I’ve asked. I find that fascinating.

I think I’ve realised that I read very narratively, so the story happens inside the card rather than treating it as having a fixed meaning. I don’t even know if that makes sense, and I don’t know if there’s a right or wrong way to read tarot. I just try to follow my intuition and see where it takes me.

It’s very interesting. I’m still so fascinated by it. Hopefully, this fascination will stay with me forever.

16/08/2026, 14:49 - Finbarre:

Oh, you are absolutely right about finding your own practice and discovering what works best for you. It’s something I wish my teenage self had picked up on.

When I first got my deck, like a lot of people, I tried to memorise all the meanings: upright and reversed, which card combined with which, and all of that. It’s very useful, and it’s a fabulous starting place.

But when I was, I think, 15, I was dating somebody and read her cards. She said, “That was great but when I read the cards, every reading is different. Every time I look at a card with that person, it’s different. I put myself in the moment.”

That’s something that has stayed with me, because otherwise you might as well have ChatGPT read for you or just randomly pick meanings out of a book. But that personal exchange, being in a moment with somebody else and exploring what it means to both of you, is powerful.

16/08/2026, 14:50 - Finbarre:

Something I could talk about for hours, but we have your first card. The Anchor card. The same card that everyone has this month.

And you get the Hierophant.

16/08/2026, 14:50 - Finbarre:

16/08/2026, 14:51 - Finbarre: A card of conformity to order, adherence to traditional ways. Sometimes dogma. Doesn’t sound like what I know of you!

16/08/2026, 14:54 - Maddi Gnewski:

A strong card, the Hierophant.

Yeah, I see him as being about learning. It’s almost as though he’s teaching the people beneath him. There’s something to do with tradition as well. He reminds me of the Church, religion and that kind of thing.

In my writing, I’m quite interested in where ideas come from: what we’re taught by our families, our relationships and the cultures around us, and then what happens when we start questioning those things.

For me, the Hierophant is a reminder that we all come from something. It may not necessarily be traditional, but we all have something we’ve inherited. It’s a fascinating topic.

In terms of writing itself and the craft, I’ve had mentors and writing communities that have shaped the way I work. I think there’s definitely a difference between learning from tradition and following it. For me, becoming a writer has partly been about learning the rules and then trying to figure out what belongs in my work and what doesn’t.

That was a very long answer, and I don’t know if it made sense! But one part, I guess, is about what we inherit and which stories we take with us. The other is more about the craft.

An interesting card.

16/08/2026, 14:57 - Finbarre:

I find it doubly interesting, considering that just a few seconds ago we were talking about taking an intuitive approach to tarot.

So going back to what you were saying about bringing these stories, these elements, these traditions, these aspects of the past through with you.

Now, my understanding is that you were born and raised in Sweden with Polish parents, and you’ve lived through several different places, different cultures.

What aspects of your past do you bring through to your writing now?

16/08/2026, 15:03 - Maddi Gnewski:

That is a good question, and one I think about a lot, actually.

I’ve lived in many different places. I’m currently in Denmark, but I’m moving back to the UK at the end of this year. So, once again, I’m moving. It’s like I can’t help myself.

I’m very drawn to family and belonging, and to complicated ideas about who we are, what is inherited and what isn’t. Having lived in so many places, I feel that I have an insider-outsider perspective on how places change you and what they mean.

When I think about my own life, the places I’ve lived are almost like timestamps. I lived in Australia in my early twenties, and that shaped me in many ways, but I can’t imagine ever moving back. It’s like a timestamp of who I was then. I think I bring a lot of that into my writing.

I’m also interested in memory itself. The way I understand past events changes as I get older, obviously, so I don’t treat memory as an objective archive. I’m also a linguist, and I speak a few different languages. I think that plays a part in my writing too. I pay a lot of attention to language and what different words mean. Every writer does that, I suppose, but when you speak several languages, there’s something about being able to bend language a little more.

Those are some of the things I bring to my writing. The experiences I’ve had have definitely shaped what I notice. They’ve made me very interested in contradictions, recurring patterns, what people say or don’t say, and cultural differences in how people behave. I’m interested in the gap between how something looks from the outside and how I might experience it.

As I think I mentioned, although I don’t know whether I said it in this voice note, I’ve also been training as a therapist. I think that has made me even more interested in these things. Culture is so fascinating.

16/08/2026, 15:05 - Maddi Gnewski:

I’d say that I bring quite a lot of my past into my writing, particularly my experiences of family. I’m fascinated by family, belonging and relationships.

Having lived in different countries has also made me interested in being both the insider and the outsider, and in how our sense of home and identity changes depending on where we are.

16/08/2026, 15:09 - Finbarre:

I’m always astonished by people who can express themselves in so many different ways through different languages. I can barely understand French and, try as I might with Duolingo, German and I just aren’t getting along.

But I’ll stick at it and hopefully learn to communicate, because my daughter is studying German. I’d like to be able to have a conversation with her over the breakfast table, at least. At the moment, I can probably only tell people that my leg and my head hurt. That’s about as expressive as I can be.

We need to pull your second card. So, Maddi, this is your wild card. It could be anything.

Of course, we already have two cards set aside from the deck: your gift card and your anchor card. But for this one, anything goes.

I’m going to shuffle the deck. Tell me when to stop, and we’ll see what you get.

16/08/2026, 15:09 - Maddi Gnewski:

16/08/2026, 15:10 - Maddi Gnewski:

I thought I’d send you this. Family is very complicated. But that being said, I’m also very proud of where I’m from.

And this is a poster of my mother. And I’ve had this poster for years and I bring it with me everywhere I move.

So this poster is coming to the UK. Family is complicated, but it’s also incredibly interesting.

16/08/2026, 15:11 - Maddi Gnewski:

Okay, stop.

16/08/2026, 15:11 - Finbarre:

Every week I try to lay the cards out on a different surface. This week I’m using a painting. Would you like me to place this one by the town or throw it in the sea?

16/08/2026, 15:12 - Maddi Gnewski:

Let’s throw it in the sea and see what happens.

16/08/2026, 15:13 - Finbarre:

16/08/2026, 15:13 - Finbarre: How could you do that to the Page of Wands?

16/08/2026, 15:13 - Finbarre: My goodness

16/08/2026, 15:13 - Maddi Gnewski: Haha I feel bad!!

16/08/2026, 15:15 - Finbarre: So, Maddi, apart from Tarot, tell me what you’re most intensely curious about, to the point where you almost wish you could do it all over again and start from the beginning.

16/08/2026, 15:18 - Maddi Gnewski:

Something I’d love to experience for the first time again is probably horse riding. I love animals. I absolutely love them. I can’t have pets at the moment, but I’m quite obsessed with animals: cats, dogs, horses, cows and goats. I love goats!

Experiencing horse riding for the first time as a child was incredible. Being so close to an animal while also feeling completely out of control was amazing. I’d love to experience that feeling again. In fact, I’d love to relive almost any experience involving animals.

I can’t wait to get my first pet. That’s something I’m really looking forward to, and I’m already imagining it. It will definitely come from a shelter, probably a cat or two.

But yes, animals are my passion.

16/08/2026, 15:19 - Maddi Gnewski:

I quite like the symbolism of throwing the Page of Wands into the sea.

Wands are all about fire and impulse and then the sea with water, emotion.

Not sure what it means, but I think there’s something symbolic there.

16/08/2026, 15:20 - Maddi Gnewski:

16/08/2026, 15:20 - Maddi Gnewski: This is my dad’s dog Lenny who I was dog sitting last week. He woke me up at 5:30 am every morning!

16/08/2026, 15:20 - Maddi Gnewski:

16/08/2026, 15:23 - Finbarre:

There’s something about seeing the Page of Wands in the ocean that makes me think of those flashes of inspiration you have at two o’clock in the morning: those brilliant ideas, or what you think are brilliant ideas.

You write them down, but when you look at them later, you see them with different eyes. It’s almost like writing the idea down, putting it in a bottle and throwing it into the ocean. Perhaps it will reach somebody else, or perhaps it will eventually return to you.

It’s a very positive card to receive. We’ll see where the cards take us.

You’ve just shown me a picture of a dog. That is a fabulous hound! He looks rather curt and surly in that photograph, as if to say, “What are you doing? I should be either sleeping or eating right now.”

16/08/2026, 15:25 - Maddi Gnewski:

Yes. I think the Page of Wands, I think, right. I think he also, he feels like an adventurer to me. Maybe the sea is where he belongs. Yeah, it’s a very sort of creative energy, very warm. Whenever I get it, the card in one of my own sort of tarot pulls, it feels very warm in my hands, very curious. It’s a really nice energy and quite playful as well. Yeah, it’s a great card.

Yes, Lenny is, he’s a strange little dog. I think I was asking him why he was waking me up at 5.30 in the morning. But he’s an interesting little dog.

16/08/2026, 15:26 - Finbarre: WITH SUCH SOULFUL EYES

16/08/2026, 15:27 - Maddi Gnewski: It’s impossible to say no to him

16/08/2026, 15:27 - Finbarre: Out of interest, which languages does Lenny respond to?

16/08/2026, 15:28 - Maddi Gnewski:

Well, so my dad and his partner live in Italy and Lenny is a rescue from Italy.

So my dad speaks to him in Polish and my dad’s partner speaks to Lenny in Italian.

And when they’re together and talking to Lenny, both of them talking to Lenny at the same time, it’s in English.

So Lenny speaks a lot of different languages. Very clever.

16/08/2026, 15:31 - Finbarre: A polyglot pooch! Who’s a clever boy! Or. Chi è un bravo ragazzo? Maybe?

16/08/2026, 15:32 - Maddi Gnewski:

He is very clever. Well, actually, he’s also one of the dumbest dogs I’ve ever met. It’s incredible.

He’s an old hunting dog. And he was found by the... Well, he was really bad at hunting, I think.

So his former owner must have just released him into the woods somewhere in Italy in the hills.

And the shelter found him with a bunch of other dogs. And then my dad and his partner decided to...

They went to this shelter and decided to adopt him. And he is really sort of... He’s a terrible hunter.

I spot deer before he does. And he’s quite sort of... Yeah, he’s a polyglot, but not a very intelligent dog.

And I love that about him. And he doesn’t hide it.

16/08/2026, 15:35 - Finbarre:

I’m afraid, Maddi, this is where the tone of the conversation needs to change.

So abruptly, if we were driving a car, you’d be hearing the crunching noises coming from the gearbox.

You have a card that’s been gifted to you, but it’s a difficult one.

So I’m saying that to you in advance.

Now, the person who gave this to you was very lovely, and I’m sure wouldn’t want to hand this to a stranger, but...

16/08/2026, 15:36 - Maddi Gnewski: I’m ready!

16/08/2026, 15:37 - Finbarre:

16/08/2026, 15:38 - Finbarre:

It’s good to hear that you’ve steeled yourself. This card is from Claire Gilman, one of the curators at Tarot, Renaissance Symbols, Modern Visions, at the Morgan Library and Museum Exhibition, which is currently on in New York.

16/08/2026, 15:39 - Finbarre: The meaning of the Thoth card she drew was Cruelty and this RWS card is often attributed to the “long dark night of the soul”

16/08/2026, 15:46 - Maddi Gnewski:

The Nine of Swords upright is quite a difficult card. I’ve pulled it several times in my own tarot readings in connection with overwhelm, anxiety and the mental loops in which I can become stuck. Even though it’s a tough card, I’m familiar with it and not necessarily frightened of it, which is probably a good thing.

I think it connects strongly with what I already explore in my writing: family, belonging and, particularly, the private aftermath of difficult experiences.

What interests me about the Nine of Swords is that we don’t actually see what has happened to this person. We only see what they’re carrying afterwards: the overwhelm and being alone with their thoughts. Whatever happened to them is continuing internally.

The idea of cruelty also connects with my interest in narrative, particularly the stories that other people construct around us and those we construct about ourselves, and how painfully they can become the truth.

I hope that makes sense. As a writer, you’re always alone with your thoughts, so it’s quite a fitting card for one.

16/08/2026, 15:50 - Finbarre:

If only the deck consisted of cards like the sun and the star and the ace of cups. But unfortunately, life isn’t like that. And that was a revealing and intimate interpretation of the card. Thank you for sharing that with me.

The question I’ve got based on your work is that fear and anxiety are physically vivid in the piece that you wrote called A Letter. And it includes nightmares and awareness of danger. I’m curious about what does writing a story express about those fears that other conversations and explanations can’t?

16/08/2026, 15:53 - Maddi Gnewski:

Yes, A Letter is actually a great example of the kind of anxiety I struggle with.

When I put something down on the page, it’s almost as though I remove it from inside me, if that makes sense. I usually begin by writing things by hand before moving to the computer. Once something is on paper, it’s no longer in my head or my body.

I may then have other anxieties to think about, but nothing else removes anxiety, nightmares or whatever I’m dealing with in quite the same way that writing does. I haven’t experienced those episodes since writing that essay, which is really interesting. I’m sure there’s an explanation for it somewhere that I don’t know, but it really does work for me.

I also run and do many other things to help with my anxiety, but nothing works in quite the same way as writing. I think there’s something about removing it from my head and putting it somewhere else. Then it stays there.

That feels unique to writing because the words remain. You can read them again and again. I don’t really know another medium in which you can do that.

16/08/2026, 15:59 - Finbarre:

Me and a friend yesterday were talking about the cathartic nature of writing.

And initially we were thinking what you should do on your WhatsApp or Telegram signal, whichever messenger you use, you should have a contact that doesn’t exist, that you can write to and rage at and tell your secrets to and offload upon this fictitious character.

Except then we realise that somebody somewhere is probably scooping up all that data.

So the idea of something as deeply personal as writing to paper, maybe people can see it, maybe they can’t, and only you know it exists in that moment. Sometimes that’s what you need.

Thank you, Maddi.

I was going to say the gift, the chance, the opportunity to shape somebody else’s reading by giving them a card. So if you’ve got that deck with you, the one that makes your fingers tingle, could you give it a good shuffle?

Draw one card for the next person, and I’ll say it’s from you.

16/08/2026, 16:01 - Maddi Gnewski: Shuffling now!

16/08/2026, 16:03 - Maddi Gnewski:

The Hermit FLEW OUT

16/08/2026, 16:06 - Finbarre: Possibly the fastest that guy has ever moved. With his lantern only having sufficient light to see the next step.

16/08/2026, 16:06 - Maddi Gnewski: Haha exactly! Who knew he could move that fast

16/08/2026, 16:07 - Finbarre: A great choice for reflection and for bonus points I might ask the next guest to impersonate the pose.

16/08/2026, 16:07 - Finbarre:

Madelaine, thank you for such an open conversation, for letting the cards touch on family and identity.

16/08/2026, 16:08 - Maddi Gnewski:

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for having me today. What a wonderful way to spend a Sunday afternoon! I really enjoyed it. Thanks so much.

16/08/2026, 16:10 - Finbarre: You can find more of Madelaine’s work at

http://madelainegnewski.com and madelainegnewski.substack.com

Tarot DMs will return soon with another conversation guided by three cards, and don’t forget to greet dogs in every language you know.

Meet previous guests on Tarot DMs

Claire Gilman is Acquavella Curator and Department Head of Modern and Contemporary Drawings at the Morgan Library & Museum in New York, where she recently organized Tarot! Renaissance Symbols, Modern Visions (June 26 - October 4, 2026) and Lisa Yuskavage: Drawings (June 27, 2025 - January 4, 2026).

Gilman holds a PhD from Columbia University. She has taught art history and critical theory at Columbia University; the Center for Curatorial Studies at Bard College; the Corcoran College of Art and Design; The Museum of Modern Art; and the School of Visual Arts. She has also lectured on modern and contemporary art throughout the United States and internationally.

Her writing has appeared in Art Journal, BOMB, The Brooklyn Rail, CAA Reviews, Documents, Frieze, and October, and she has contributed numerous essays to art books and museum exhibition catalogues. Her book Drawing in the Present Tense, co-authored with Roger Malbert, was recently published by Thames & Hudson.

Discover more about the Tarot! Renaissance Symbols, Modern Visions exhibition here: https://www.themorgan.org/exhibitions/tarot

12/08/2026, 20:06 - Finbarre: Welcome to Tarot DMs, with Finbarre. In the far-flung past it is said that tarot began in the courts of Renaissance Italy as a game, a luxury object. The cards did not stay there. Across six centuries, artists, occultists, writers and readers have continued to take their symbols and make them mean something new.

My guest today is Claire Gilman, Acquavella Curator and Department Head of Modern and Contemporary Drawings at the Morgan Library & Museum in New York. Claire curated the Modern Visions section of Tarot! Renaissance Symbols, Modern Visions, an exhibition tracing tarot from its Renaissance origins to its continuing influence on modern and contemporary art.

The exhibition is at the Morgan Library & Museum from June 26 to October 4, 2026.

Claire, hello! How the devil are you today?

12/08/2026, 20:07 - Claire Gilman: I’m pretty well today - I think. So far! Thank you for having me on Tarot DMs!

12/08/2026, 20:08 - Finbarre: Before I draw forth my deck of Rider-Waite-Smith cards and show you your first card, tell me Claire - what is it like where you are at the moment?

12/08/2026, 20:09 - Claire Gilman: Well I’m not sure it’s as hot as it is in the UK but I am also grateful for my desk fan.

12/08/2026, 20:10 - Finbarre: I think it is around 80F here - the way I usually tell the temperature is by measuring how long my cat is and doubling the number. Beigli, my ginger familiar is sprawled out behind me so we’re in good company. How is the exhibition going so far?

12/08/2026, 20:11 - Claire Gilman: 😍 The exhibition is going very well! It is packed every day. And the first printing of our catalogue sold out so that is very exciting.

12/08/2026, 20:12 - Finbarre: My ears pricked up at this. Catalogue? Do you have a link?

12/08/2026, 20:13 - Claire Gilman: Yes let me find it

12/08/2026, 20:13 - Finbarre: Somehow I have discovered a late-in-life obsession with collecting decks and this would make the perfect inspiration for even more.

12/08/2026, 20:13 - Claire Gilman: Here you go! https://shop.themorgan.org/products/tarot-renaissance-symbols-modern-visions

12/08/2026, 20:15 - Finbarre:

Oh, I did NOT need to see that. Clearly I don’t have enough gilded cardboard in my life but this is giving me ideas. Thank you for this! So, to start things off we’ll take a look at the Anchor card. this is the one that all guests receive, and this month it’s an interesting one. You have...

12/08/2026, 20:16 - Finbarre:

12/08/2026, 20:16 - Claire Gilman: Oooh. That’s an intense card no?

12/08/2026, 20:19 - Finbarre: I really like this card. On the face of it, a card of spiritual wisdom - so given the exhibition that’s a perfect place to start, but my conspiracy theory is that Pamela Colman Smith snuck in some rather subversive symbolism, like I would swear that the central figure is Pope Joan, possibly a nod to the suffragette struggle at the time. It has mischief in there I reckon. What vibes do you get?

12/08/2026, 20:21 - Claire Gilman: Agreed. I really love the fact that this is a female figure - not all hierophants are - and that she is presiding over these two men identifiable only by their bald heads. It’s very empowering.

12/08/2026, 20:22 - Finbarre: My first tarot question then has to be... how important do you think tradition is to tarot?

12/08/2026, 20:24 - Claire Gilman: I think tradition is very important to Tarot but this doesn’t mean that tradition has to be followed blindly. I think that artists are drawn to tarot because it has this art historical lineage so in working with the imagery artists - and readers - are part of something. But at the same time tarot is open ended in its very nature and so it is natural that artists and readers feel empowered to adapt its symbolism to speak to contemporary issues and communities. I think as a visual form tarot is quite unique in this way.

12/08/2026, 20:26 - Claire Gilman: For instance we commissioned a project from the British artist Chris Ofili for the show and he linked tarot, and the way in which the arcana are adapted and repurposed to Trinidadian carnival which also uses adaptable characters.

12/08/2026, 20:27 - Finbarre: Name rings a bell... wait. Didn’t he win the Turner Prize if memory serves?

12/08/2026, 20:28 - Claire Gilman: Yes he did! Quite a few years ago I think.

12/08/2026, 20:28 - Finbarre: His work is GORGEOUS, Magic in its own right, frankly

12/08/2026, 20:29 - Claire Gilman: It really is. I wanted to invite someone whose work is engaged with spiritual themes but who hasn’t worked specifically with tarot before.

12/08/2026, 20:29 - Finbarre: On that, do you think there’s a point where an artist can change tarot so much that it stops being tarot?

12/08/2026, 20:30 - Claire Gilman: That’s a good question. Yes I think there must be but I’m not sure I could define it in the abstract. If the person thinks of it as tarot then maybe it is?

12/08/2026, 20:32 - Claire Gilman: We have a work in the show by the artist Dorothy Iannone which is an ode to her partner Dieter Roth and she calls it a Ta(rot) pack but the meaning of all the cards is her own.

12/08/2026, 20:32 - Claire Gilman: But I do think most tarot decks follow certain conventions. Like the number of cards and division between major and minor arcana.

12/08/2026, 20:34 - Finbarre: I can’t think of a more romantic gift, especially if Dorothy and Dieter are sharing some kind of private system that is woven through the deck. I would blush if I peeped in that!

12/08/2026, 20:34 - Claire Gilman: You definitely would. The deck is very naughty!!

12/08/2026, 20:36 - Finbarre: I see. Moving SWIFTLY on (although now I’m curious) to the Wild card. This is your card that I will pick purely by chance so reach out from across the Atlantic and write “stop” when the moment feels right. I’ll shuffle these 76 cards until you do.

12/08/2026, 20:37 - Claire Gilman: STOP

12/08/2026, 20:38 - Finbarre: Hello, I haven’t seen this card for a long time...

12/08/2026, 20:38 - Claire Gilman: Interesting …

12/08/2026, 20:38 - Finbarre:

12/08/2026, 20:38 - Claire Gilman: Oooh. I don’t know much about the eight of swords.

12/08/2026, 20:39 - Finbarre: The card of constriction.

12/08/2026, 20:42 - Claire Gilman: I suppose it is about reminding us that we make our own realities.

12/08/2026, 20:42 - Claire Gilman: But I wouldn’t say I identify with this card

12/08/2026, 20:43 - Finbarre: Exactly! How about this: every curator works within constraints - loans, conservation, space, budgets (lack of) and changing priorities. Can those restrictions actually sharpen an exhibition, in the same way that tarot’s fixed structure can focus the artist’s imagination

12/08/2026, 20:44 - Claire Gilman: That is really good and very true!! I agree completely.

12/08/2026, 20:45 - Finbarre: Does a tarot exhibition come with inherent challenges? More so than any other artwork?

12/08/2026, 20:47 - Claire Gilman: No I wouldn’t say so, except for the fact that it is such a rich and complex history so telling the story is challenging. And the story will be only one story - although of course that’s true of anything. But certainly I feel we could have organized this exhibition three times over with different works and artists.

12/08/2026, 20:49 - Finbarre: If you do, I will need to find my way over to the US! Is there a strand of tarot history you would have loved to build around?

12/08/2026, 20:51 - Claire Gilman: I think I would be interested in getting more deeply into tarot in different cultures. The show takes a fairly western point of view although it does incorporate a few artists from other regions. I also wish we could have included more contemporary tarot decks. But we focused more on artists incorporating tarot imagery into their work rather than tarot artists per se. If that makes sense.

12/08/2026, 20:53 - Finbarre: Very much, my gateway to tarot cards was through the goth album covers and 2000AD comics I had as a kid. Even in those pop culture media they still have power!

12/08/2026, 20:53 - Claire Gilman: Oh that’s very cool!

12/08/2026, 20:54 - Finbarre: Your last card is from another Claire - Claire Sarmiento from Barkbyte Interactive from my last Tarot DMs chat and she picked this just for you

12/08/2026, 20:54 - Finbarre:

12/08/2026, 20:55 - Claire Gilman: I love that card. It seems a good antidote to the eight of swords!

12/08/2026, 20:56 - Finbarre: Very much so, plus travelling in STYLE. OK, your last question is.... you are taking visitors across roughly six centuries of history. How do you stop the journey from becoming a succession of disconnected objects?

12/08/2026, 20:59 - Claire Gilman: Well the show is not a continuous history. It’s really focused on two historical moments. Tarots origins in the Renaissance and its development in the 20th and 21st centuries. And then the modern visions section is further divided into four historical moments - the British occult revival, Surrealism, the US in the 60s and 70s and the contemporary moment. So in a way it’s focusing on different periods of heightened interest in the occult. Each section can be considered on its own or in dialogue. So it’s OK if you don’t take in the full history!

12/08/2026, 21:01 - Finbarre: That makes sense. Less like a timeline and more like a series of moments when tarot and the occult became especially culturally charged. I like the idea that visitors can move between those moments and notice the connections happening across them, without needing to follow one continuous historical path.

12/08/2026, 21:01 - Claire Gilman: Exactly. Although there are many correspondences. But they aren’t necessarily linear. Like tarot itself!

12/08/2026, 21:02 - Finbarre: Do you have your own tarot deck to hand to shape the fate of the next guest on Tarot DMs?

12/08/2026, 21:03 - Claire Gilman: I do! The Thoth Tarot!

12/08/2026, 21:04 - Finbarre: A deck that most certainly does not mess about. I have seen some of the original plates from that deck last year and they gave me goosebumps! Claire, draw your card.

12/08/2026, 21:05 - Claire Gilman: It’s a tough one

12/08/2026, 21:05 - Claire Gilman: But beautiful

12/08/2026, 21:06 - Claire Gilman:

12/08/2026, 21:07 - Finbarre: I stand by my original comment. WOW.

12/08/2026, 21:07 - Claire Gilman: Agreed.

12/08/2026, 21:07 - Claire Gilman: That is a gorgeous card

12/08/2026, 21:08 - Finbarre: Very much so and interestingly a card of sleeplessness which is so apt for this weather! Claire, thank you so much for joining me and talking about the marvellous exhibition you’re involved with.

12/08/2026, 21:09 - Claire Gilman: Thank you for having me. I had a great time!

12/08/2026, 21:10 - Finbarre: We followed the cards through art, history and the many ways tarot continues to be reimagined over and over again.

Tarot! Renaissance Symbols, Modern Visions is at the Morgan Library & Museum in New York until October 4, 2026.

• Website: https://www.themorgan.org

• Location: The Morgan Library & Museum, 225 Madison Avenue, New York, NY 10016

• Google Maps: https://maps.app.goo.gl/oCEySNUA1hWoBQcBA

• Admission: $25 for adults; $13 for students with current ID

• Special access: Free on Fridays from 5:00–8:00 p.m. Advance online reservations are required.

Meet previous guests on Tarot DMs

Leon Craig's debut novel The Decadence (2025) and queer gothic short story collection Parallel Hells (2022) are both available from Sceptre Books UK. Leon's work has also featured in the Sunday Times, Hazlitt and Berlin Babel anthology among others. She will be hosting an event on homes, hauntedness and belonging at the Owl Bookshop in London Oct 22nd.

Find more of Leon’s work here: https://www.leoncraigwriter.com

19/07/2026, 12:32 - Finbarre:

There are houses which are haunted, and then there are houses that haunt you.

Leon Craig’s debut novel, The Decadence, stars such a place, and it sends a group of 20-somethings into an isolated, medieval manor for a week of sex and drugs and escape from the pandemic.

Unfortunately, the place has its own history, its own appetites, and no intention of letting the party remain uncomplicated.

Leon is the author of Parallel Hells, a deliciously strange collection of folklore too.

We’re entering Leon’s world through a different set of doors. There are 78 of them.

Leon Craig, welcome to Tarot DMs.

19/07/2026, 12:33 - Leon Craig:

Hello, Finbarre. That was a wonderful introduction to The Decadence. Thank you so much for having me on Tarot DMs. I am very excited. And my partner’s dog has just demanded to be let in. So Stephanie is in the room with us as well. And yes, I hope you’re having a lovely afternoon and hopefully an unhaunted one. Subject matter notwithstanding.

19/07/2026, 12:34 - Finbarre:

Could you possibly introduce Stephanie and even better take a sneaky picture?

I mean, you may need to speak to Stephanie’s agent, but see if they say yes.

19/07/2026, 12:35 - Leon Craig:

I would be more than happy to share a picture of Steph. I have been informed by her agent that the price of participation is belly rubs and possibly a steak. We’re going to keep negotiating about the steak, but here is Stephanie in all of her glory. She is eight years old and she enjoys standing on my head at 5am and watching silly television with me. But she’s otherwise a very good girl.

19/07/2026, 12:35 - Finbarre: Sadly I have none of my cats with me at the moment, they are all basking outside underneath the hammock. Sensible creatures that they are.

19/07/2026, 12:35 - Leon Craig:

19/07/2026, 12:36 - Leon Craig: Oh to be a cat basking in/ on/ under hammock on a summer afternoon

19/07/2026, 12:37 - Leon Craig: I also love cat pictures if you happen to have any to hand

19/07/2026, 12:37 - Finbarre:

19/07/2026, 12:38 - Leon Craig: Gorgeous cat and gorgeous sunshine! What’s the coin?

19/07/2026, 12:38 - Finbarre:

Here is one of my familiars. This is Díos, and her name, I believe in Hungarian, means walnut flavoured. Her sort of brother is Beigli, which means sweet roll. He is the little ginger guy that I often have appearing on Tarot DMs. And we also have the mysterious, the not oft-sighted Bexley, who is a, he’s getting to be a wizened tuxedo cat.

He is very wise and also very frit, so I don’t normally get to take pictures of him.

19/07/2026, 12:39 - Finbarre:

The coin there is from a renfair called Wyldwood, where you go dressed up in your geekery and nerdery.

I went as a Mephistopheles character, asking people if they would sign their soul away in return for cat key rings.

And I signed three scrolls. So it turns out the price of souls is quite cheap these days.

I also dressed as a pirate. And these are all part of the trinket trades.

So you would take a pouch full of oddments and nonsense and just swap it with strangers for whatever they had in their pouches.

And yeah, the results are good.

19/07/2026, 12:39 - Leon Craig:

“Frit” is such a good word and it’s always so satisfying when you get to deploy words like that that have such a specific use case. Also, it feels very appropriate for tarot DMs that your kind of feline presence is triune. I like that. It’s very witchy.

19/07/2026, 12:40 - Leon Craig:

Sounds jolly handy, actually, to have three spare souls for when you need to do a bit of bartering.

19/07/2026, 12:41 - Leon Craig:

I actually rather miss having opportunities for full-on fancy dress because I live in Berlin these days and you can wear more or less whatever you want without anyone batting an eyelid. I probably could just wander around the city dressed as Mephistopheles and nothing untoward would happen. But also, it is a very casual place as well. So perhaps I would be overdressed, whereas the UK and also Ireland, where the tradition stems from, have a delightful Halloween and something long-standing. And it’s not so common here because Germany is not Celtic in that way. Though they do have Walpurgisnacht. And I know someone who did actually go and dance in the woods as a witch on Walpurgisnacht has said that she’s pretty sure she traumatised some passers-by who stumbled across them. So maybe there are more opportunities that I haven’t yet seized.

19/07/2026, 12:45 - Finbarre:

If you’re ever in the UK, you’re welcome to borrow one of my four smoking jackets, a pair of horns and we can have a Soul Off. Most number of filled contacts wins.

19/07/2026, 12:45 - Finbarre: (Not an offer I was expecting to make when I woke up this morning but here we are)

19/07/2026, 12:47 - Leon Craig: This is so fabulous, and I’m rather envious of your extensive smoking jacket collection. Commence the Soul Off! Winner takes all

19/07/2026, 12:47 - Leon Craig: One never knows what the day will bring

19/07/2026, 12:47 - Leon Craig: For goodness’ sakes

19/07/2026, 12:48 - Finbarre:

Leon, I tell you what, I’ll do you a deal with slightly less permanent and infernal stakes.

I will trade you three cards for three stories, starting with the first. Are you up for that?

19/07/2026, 12:49 - Leon Craig:

Yes, I think that sounds like a good introductory offer. Three cards for three stories. I don’t know who is telling the stories, but I’m intrigued. So let’s roll with it.

19/07/2026, 12:50 - Finbarre:

19/07/2026, 12:50 - Finbarre: We’ll start with DEATH! Something bright and breezy

19/07/2026, 12:51 - Leon Craig: Cheerful and uncomplicated! I love this design, and that skeleton looks familiar - does it appear on a Buddhist scroll somewhere

19/07/2026, 12:51 - Leon Craig: This one is mine

19/07/2026, 12:54 - Finbarre:

I’ll curse you, Leon. I don’t know about the Buddhist scroll connection, but now you’ll have sent me down some wild Wikipedia rabbit holes to try and find out. The death that I have is from the Scapini Tarot from 1985, I believe. He’s quite a poppity-boppity skeleton. He looks like the kind of figure you’d almost see on the back of a pirate in the 17th or 18th century.

He’s having a wonderful time. Looks like he would do with plastic ducks. He’s fishing for heads there, whereas your Death is a chap who’s having a bad day at work.

19/07/2026, 12:55 - Finbarre:

As Death is widely considered to be part of change, transition, or metamorphosis, I’d love to know which part of your identity as a writer went through that process between Parallel Hells and your first novel.

19/07/2026, 12:58 - Leon Craig:

I’m going to end up going on the same wormhole later, actually, with, I think, I’m pretty sure it’s Tibetan Buddhist art. But anyway, I’m going to stop stalling and answer your question, because fair is fair.

To me, Parallel Hells and The Decadence almost feel of a piece, because I wrote Parallel Hells while I was wrestling with The Decadence and wasn’t ready or able to write it.

I actually don’t think I could have written The Decadence without writing the stories in Parallel Hells. I found that I had to really push myself as a writer to complete and edit the collection.

That meant that, by the time I came to The Decadence, I already had that kind of headwind of: I have finished a thing. I have completed a project. I think one of the things that gives you a lot more confidence is simply knowing that you have completed something.

Potential is both kind of ever-renewing, because the first time you start and complete any project is the first time you start and complete that particular project, but also, the further you get from being entirely a debut, the more that kind of untapped potential is foreclosed, because you have done something with it.

I suppose I had to let go of that newness, and I guess a kind of writerly virginity, in a way, to go ahead and say: yeah, this is my first novel.

I was wrestling with versions of The Decadence for so, so long that I actually felt this very odd sense of loss when I completed it, because it had been my constant companion.

I used to walk around that house in my mind when I couldn’t sleep, because, until very recently, I had really terrible insomnia. In some ways, I have been haunting the characters as much as anything else, because I sort of psychically occupied that space for so long.

I think it was actually good for me to leave it. I remember, after handing in my final edits, thinking: I have to stop doing this. I have to stop walking around in there, because it is now done and finished.

So, yeah, I suppose there was more death, change and finality than I might initially have thought, but also a kind of release that those two books, which were very much tied together in my mind, are finished and are out in…

19/07/2026, 13:03 - Leon Craig:

Wait, I just remembered that I have an addendum to that. Sorry.

Between writing Parallel Hells and writing this final version of The Decadence, I moved from London to Berlin. That was at the end of 2020, so it was during the pandemic.

I also think I probably could not have written The Decadence without moving country, or at least it would have been a very different book.

Having that distance from what had been my life in London allowed me to look more critically at some things about the UK, because I had a different perspective on them.

I was living in a different place and culture, with different linguistic concerns. I was also meeting many more people who were looking at the UK from the outside. I think that was quite helpful and necessary.

But again, every time you move country, there is a loss. You give things up as much as you take new things on. It is a pretty big change for anyone, and I think that probably also shows in the writing.

19/07/2026, 13:06 - Finbarre:

Thank you for carrying us across the threshold of that seismic shift in your life.

Looking at those cards that you’ve showed me, I don’t recognise the style.

Can you tell me the name of the deck and also what appeals to you about those cards?

19/07/2026, 13:09 - Leon Craig:

I’m really enjoying all the doorway and threshold imagery in this conversation.

It actually feels pleasingly architectural, which is exactly right for a haunted house novel.

I suppose the cards also have their own kind of corridors and passageways to one another and elements of symmetry.

Anyway, I’m going to stop waxing lyrical.

I was given these cards when I was about nine or ten by a family friend.

And I am afraid that the packet is long lost, but they’ve come with me everywhere I go.

And I enjoy them because they are actually quite small.

So they fit perfectly in the palm of my hand.

I mean, I do also have quite large hands.

They have a sort of late 90s, early 2000s old aesthetic.

I suspect that they may actually come from Treadwell’s bookshop in London because I used to spend a fair bit of time in that bookshop with said family friend.

She also introduced me to a very strange pen pal who kept writing about having problems with ghosts.

This family friend was very into esoteric things.

And the pen pal claimed that he’d done something at a megalithic site in Poland and then was being bothered by a Neolithic spirit.

Eventually, I actually stopped replying to him because his letters really freaked me out.

And I was also like, I’m a child.

Why are you writing to me about this?

So yeah, the cards for me are very associated with this like quite strange, but also rather magical time in my late childhood.

19/07/2026, 13:10 - Leon Craig:

19/07/2026, 13:14 - Finbarre: Does the High Priestess have a purple and green robe out of interest?

19/07/2026, 13:14 - Leon Craig: Looking for her now

19/07/2026, 13:15 - Leon Craig:

19/07/2026, 13:15 - Leon Craig: Just blue-green

19/07/2026, 13:16 - Leon Craig: I love those columns

19/07/2026, 13:17 - Finbarre: WOW. Also, I thought I knew the artist but this has pulled the rug from under my feet. I can see why you picked this marvellously moody deck, I love the use of shadow here. Perfect for the card.

19/07/2026, 13:17 - Finbarre: Your next card awaits, as it happens.

19/07/2026, 13:17 - Finbarre:

19/07/2026, 13:17 - Leon Craig: It’s always enjoyable to have a little mystery in one’s life

19/07/2026, 13:18 - Leon Craig: I’m also curious about her hat

19/07/2026, 13:18 - Leon Craig: Yes please - are you about to draw for me, or shall I?

19/07/2026, 13:19 - Finbarre:

That is a really good question. Normally I would shuffle these for you. I would ask you to shout out across from Berlin, “Aufhören” or “Stoppen” or however you pronounce German words for “stop”. But I think this time I should get you to shuffle the cards and I’ll say stop.

19/07/2026, 13:20 - Finbarre: Tell me when you have them in hand

19/07/2026, 13:20 - Leon Craig: That’s a fun twist

19/07/2026, 13:20 - Leon Craig: I have them, about to start now

19/07/2026, 13:21 - Finbarre:

So round and round they go. Not that one. Definitely not that one. That one could be interesting. Nope. Keep going. Keep going. That one. That one for sure. Stop right there.

19/07/2026, 13:21 - Finbarre: What did we get?

19/07/2026, 13:21 - Leon Craig:

19/07/2026, 13:22 - Leon Craig: A dashing figure

19/07/2026, 13:22 - Leon Craig: Quite androgynous

19/07/2026, 13:22 - Leon Craig: Alone and determined

19/07/2026, 13:23 - Leon Craig: Almost looks like a Fool gone rogue from the clothes

19/07/2026, 13:24 - Finbarre:

Hello, Knave of Swords, you cheeky little scamp.

As coincidence or fate would have it, this weekend I’ve been researching the very similar Page of Swords, which I’m sure the Knave of Swords is taken from, and the person who would have originally modelled the part and who the card is based on.

And I’m researching this. I don’t quite have the evidence yet. I’ve reason to believe it’s somebody called Christabel Marshall, who Pamela Coleman-Smith knew through the theatre.

Christabel Marshall went on to dress as a man, live as a man, and changed their name to Christopher St. John, or Christopher St. John. I’m looking into their life at the moment, so it’s good to see this figure turn up.

19/07/2026, 13:25 - Finbarre:

I’m thinking of the suit that this comes from, air, the idea of this figure being extraordinarily alert.

So, Leon, when it comes to your writing, what details, whether it be a particular type of marginalia, particular historical details, what things is it that fires your imagination when you’re writing?

19/07/2026, 13:30 - Leon Craig:

That is a pleasing, if slightly freaky, bit of synchronicity. Also, very, very cool about Christabel or Christopher, depending on what period in their life we’re thinking about. Gosh, the history of the Rider-Waite Tarot is really fascinating.

Funnily enough, when I first saw this card come up after he said stop, I immediately associated the figure with Jan, my main character in The Decadence, particularly in the latter half of the book.

She starts out as a bit reticent and is very worried about the holiday to the haunted house, but she’s also very purpose-driven. She’s a cook. She’s very organised. She’s looking after the group as they go there.

Then she starts to pick up on more and more details of things that are wrong in the house. In the latter half of the book, she starts to really take action and sound the alarm: we’re not alone here. Something’s really wrong. I’m really concerned.

Some of the friends listen to her and some of them do not. She almost verges on being quite aggressive because she’s started to realise that the haunting is a real concern.

In terms of what inspires me in writing, often it is the consequences of what happens if somebody names the unnameable. What is that actually like to live with? What happens when we think this through?

For instance, one of the major features of my book is that, in Holt House, there are all these hidden passageways carved into the walls by generations of the Mortimer family.

I remember seeing these on various tours of stately homes and thinking: okay, I can imagine being a child here, playing hide-and-seek and hiding in here, but also think of all the other uses to which these are put.

I would inhabit that space with my imagination and try to play through all the different scenarios.

I think my inspiration usually comes from seeing the status quo and asking: what happens if I push it one step further? What is an outrageous thing that I can do with this?

Another example from the book is that Theo’s family library contains quite a major clue to what is wrong with the house.

I’ve always loved the idea that, within these accumulated book collections, there are often answers to questions such as: who are these people? What are they like? What do they really care about?

I suppose I’m also fixated on this because, as a former medievalist, we were always being exposed to news stories about academics finding very rare manuscripts just lying around in Scottish castles.

When a family has lived somewhere for hundreds, or even a thousand, years, they don’t necessarily know everything they have. You might come across a rare manuscript while pootling about in one of the less-visited upstairs rooms.

So, yeah, I also find book collections very exciting and inspiring.

19/07/2026, 13:35 - Leon Craig: Sadly I do not have a castle to find and lose manuscripts in but I do love tchotchkes and hoarding books

19/07/2026, 13:35 - Leon Craig:

19/07/2026, 13:37 - Finbarre: The thread of that interest, like a medieval tapestry winds all the way back to my previous guest, the cartoonist Clarice Tudor who wrote the perils and pitfalls of dating in medieval and modern times in “’Tis Thee, Not Me” and she gave you the final card of...

19/07/2026, 13:38 - Finbarre: (Pausing for a moment to admire that fabulous book collection and writing down a wishlist of the ones I’m going to look up and shove onto my protesting shelves)

19/07/2026, 13:38 - Finbarre:

19/07/2026, 13:38 - Leon Craig: Oh wow

19/07/2026, 13:39 - Leon Craig: Thank you, Clarice Tudor

19/07/2026, 13:40 - Leon Craig:

Funnily enough, I really vibe with this card because I first saw an amazing medieval mural of the Wheel of Fortune on a school trip to Canterbury. I remember being really taken with it as an image.

I think it also comes up quite a lot in Webster’s The White Devil, where the main character swears at Fortuna before he does his evil deeds.

There’s also an amazing bit at the end of my friend Victoria Gosling’s novel Bliss and Blunder, where she talks about that feeling at Midsommar when the Wheel of Fortune is about to turn again.

We’re not long past Midsommar. You definitely sometimes almost hear the machinery creaking.

But I would also love to hear your interpretation. It has been a real pleasure reading through all your different thoughts and your research on the tarot.

19/07/2026, 13:43 - Leon Craig: Apparently it’s Rochester Cathedral

19/07/2026, 13:46 - Finbarre:

I’m always looking for an excuse for a good church trip. Normally, I’d like to go somewhere like the Gothic Quarter of Barcelona.

Rochester Cathedral is one I’ve not been to and, from that picture alone, it looks well worth the visit.

I’m looking over this version of the Wheel of Fortune now. It’s not one that I’m particularly au fait with. This deck of cards arrived from eBay some weeks ago.

Looking at the Wheel of Fortune here, we obviously have the four different suits, represented in an unconventional way by some very spooky-looking children.

We have the swords, the pentacles and the wands, which are about to be doused in the water represented below.

We have this peculiar amalgamation of the Two of Swords with Justice, with the Hermit almost drowning at the bottom.

Because of the movement and the flurry, he isn’t able to stop, reflect and enjoy the isolation. He is almost drowning in the pandemonium of the wheel.

This is a wheel that turns rapidly. It’s like a spinning disc that you would find on an almost whirling blade.

I would say this is a card of chaos because there is so much going on here. But because of the ordered movement, and because of the order of the suits that we see, it is implacable.

19/07/2026, 13:47 - Finbarre:

The vibe that I get from this illustration isn’t of a spinning wheel that you would watch for entertainment.

It’s of a blade that would almost slice through the tree of life.

19/07/2026, 13:49 - Finbarre:

For your last question, Leon, thinking of charmed life versus calamity, what detour or disappointment has proved the most fortunate in your creative life?

19/07/2026, 13:54 - Leon Craig:

That is a fantastic question. Funnily enough, it relates very much to the Wheel.

At the moment, I’m doing a huge number of things to get ready for the forthcoming paperback of The Decadence. I’m trying to move in the direction of the Wheel without being completely crushed by it.

The Hermit at the bottom: I see him. I don’t think he’s drowning. He might not be having the best time, but he is definitely still swimming. His little foot is up. He’s continually keeping his head above the water.

The setback that relates to this emergence question is that, in early October last year, I received a review of The Decadence that I felt did not accurately portray the contents of the work in some cases.

While I was very disappointed about that for some time, I decided that I would not allow that review to be the thing that defined the story I spent years of my life writing.

I decided that I was going to be more energised and proactive in seeking out venues where I could talk about all the themes that went into the book, from love and terrible holidays to queer experience, Jewish experience, hauntedness and how you write a haunted house.

There are lots of craft topics that I’ve been addressing. Getting to contextualise the book in my own way has been enormously energising.

I’m really happy that I was pushed to do that because I now feel like I’ve really given it my all. I’m just more satisfied.

Reaching out to other people to collaborate with them has also been a real joy of the post-publication experience. Again, I don’t think I would have been as proactive in doing that otherwise.

So, you know, I’m swimming. Sometimes the Wheel is looming overhead, but I am swimming.

I was also particularly thrilled to be asked to do Tarot DMs because it is another way of looking at the book.

There is a scene around the middle of the book where two of the characters, one of whom has quite a lot to do with more offbeat areas of spirituality, are doing a tarot reading. Again, the cards they get are a warning sign.

This felt like a really wonderful full-circle movement because I had so much fun writing that scene. Getting to talk tarot with someone as knowledgeable as you feels exactly right for it.

19/07/2026, 13:55 - Leon Craig:

19/07/2026, 13:59 - Finbarre:

The image of that magnificent dog in the card has reminded me that Stephanie could be our guide here.

Normally I would ask you, Leon, to pick out a card to give to the next guest but I feel that Stephanie can help us out.

Could you, if you’re willing, show Stephanie the deck?

The first card that Stephanie sniffs will be the one that we pass on.

19/07/2026, 14:00 - Leon Craig: Surprised but pleased to be asked

19/07/2026, 14:01 - Leon Craig:

19/07/2026, 14:02 - Leon Craig:

I’m just giving her a little treat for her participation in Tarot DMs.

19/07/2026, 14:03 - Finbarre: I WANT THAT CAPE. My goodness. What a fabulously dynamic gift to pass onto the next participant. Stephanie has a nose for good choices, evidently.

19/07/2026, 14:03 - Leon Craig: I hope the next participant has a lot of fun with it!

19/07/2026, 14:04 - Leon Craig: swooshes cape dramatically

19/07/2026, 14:04 - Finbarre:

Dear listener, dear reader, we entered through 78 small doors, and somehow we’ve emerged from a whole house with our minds and our dignity mostly intact.

Leon, thank you for leading us through the haunted spaces you write about.

The Decadence is out now, of course, and Parallel Hells awaits anyone who prefers their folklore strange and sharp-toothed.

This has been Leon Craig with Stephanie on Tarot DMs with Finbarre.

Let’s close the door behind us before the house notices we’re leaving.

19/07/2026, 14:06 - Leon Craig:

Thank you so much, Finbarre. Yes, let’s close that door and bolt it, but then look nervously over our shoulders at Holt House because it has a way of following you out into the wider world.

And I would certainly know this has been a real pleasure. And I know that cards have a funny way of reoccurring in our lives after we pull them. So I am very curious to see where today’s pop up again. Thank you again so much.

Meet previous guests on Tarot DMs

Charming Disaster is a Brooklyn-based dark-pop musical duo formed by Ellia Bisker and Jeff Morris. Inspired by gothic humor, murder ballads, and cabaret flair, they use two voices, ukulele, guitar, and foot percussion to saunter through their stories. In their interactive Musical Oracle show, the setlist is chosen entirely by chance as audience members draw from the band’s custom Tarot-style divination deck blurring live gig with theatre.

With seven critically acclaimed albums spanning themes of folklore, mythology, and the occult, they have opened for goth and cabaret icons like Rasputina, Voltaire, and The Dresden Dolls, and their music has been featured on Welcome to Night Vale. Whether they are playing historic cemeteries, museums, Joe’s Pub in NYC or Dragon Con - Charming Disaster bring their uncanny Gothic wonderland to the stage.

Explore the world of Charming Disaster

Buy your own Oracle deck here - ships from US or UK.

11/07/2026, 16:06 - Finbarre:

Welcome to Tarot DMs. Charming Disaster make darkly theatrical songs where occult folklore and deadpan romance meet. Their music carries a hint of the pale pandemonium you might find in a Baudelaire-esque bordello. In this Tarot DMs conversation, the duo take turns to draw the cards with me, Finbarre, to talk about creative partnerships and the shadows that slither between their song notes. Hello.

11/07/2026, 16:07 - Ellia:

Hello, this is Ellia Bisker. I am half of the gothic folk duo Charming Disaster. We are based in New York City, where we’ve been making nerdy, spooky songs inspired by the occult, science, myths and magic since 2012. And I believe Jeff has joined the chat as well now, so we are now at full Charming Disaster disastrousness.

11/07/2026, 16:08 - Jeff: I’m here, friends.

11/07/2026, 16:08 - Finbarre: Hurrah! Welcome, fella!

11/07/2026, 16:08 - Jeff: Good to be here.

11/07/2026, 16:08 - Ellia: As for the recording, I was just messing around with some ukulele sounds. Nothing with shareable results, just some R&D really.

11/07/2026, 16:09 - Finbarre:

Jeff, it’s lovely to see your name on my screen. What have you been up to? How’s your weekend been so far?

11/07/2026, 16:09 - Jeff:

Oh, so far, so good. I’ve just been, let’s see, eating some food and doing some PT exercises for my hands, which have been bothering me lately. But otherwise, I am, I don’t know, excited to be here and chat with you all.

11/07/2026, 16:10 - Ellia: The weekend is still in its infancy here. I just had a really lovely breakfast of kefir with yellow cherries and granola I made.

11/07/2026, 16:12 - Finbarre:

Ellia, no, you’ve just gone and made me hungry. I’ve just had my lunch. I’ve just polished off half a watermelon, and that sounds utterly delicious.

Also, when I was reading what you’ve been up to, I completely misread what you typed. I had what I call a “flub-and-chub moment”. Instead of seeing R&D, I read that as ukulele R&B, which I feel like I’ve got to hear.

Right. We shall crack on with the cards that we have here, and I’m using a very special deck. But before I reveal the secret, I had in mind for the first card some inspiration from the weather.

Antonio Vivaldi has his Summer concerto, which I think is known in Italian as L’estate, and it has such a heavy, oppressive feel, almost suffocating. So although it is bright and sunny and all the rest of it, and usually, I think you guys can take it, I’m going to use the Death card as our first one.

I’m going to take a picture of it and see what you think.

11/07/2026, 16:12 - Finbarre:

11/07/2026, 16:13 - Finbarre: We’re using a deck from the Scapini Tarot from around 1985 and we’ll be starting off, straight out of the traps, with this freaky-looking masterpiece.

11/07/2026, 16:13 - Finbarre:

11/07/2026, 16:14 - Ellia: Oh, that is a…

11/07/2026, 16:14 - Finbarre: A heavy one to begin with. What vibes are we getting from this one?

11/07/2026, 16:14 - Ellia:

Oh my goodness, that is a positively jaunty-looking Death, capering on the severed heads and reaching hands of those who have fallen. I love the bluebird, perhaps a bluebird of happiness flying. It’s so gleeful. I don’t know. Jeff, what do you think?

11/07/2026, 16:15 - Ellia:

You know, in the Rider-Waite-Smith deck, which is the one that I usually use, Death looks like one of the knights riding off to war with the battle standard. It resembles the other knights in composition, which are action cards.

And this Death is just staring you in the face and dancing. I’m really into this.

11/07/2026, 16:15 - Jeff:

Oh, yes. I love the dancerly quality of the Death character. And it seems to be on a pond or some sort of water. There are little water plants in the background, maybe water lilies.

11/07/2026, 16:16 - Jeff:

I also love the spine. Instead of a sword, it looks like some sort of disembodied spine being wielded. That’s really cool.

11/07/2026, 16:16 - Jeff:

And look at the hand signals of the drowned souls in the background. Those must have some sort of occult significance.

11/07/2026, 16:16 - Finbarre:

Jeff, I had not noticed the spine in that picture. And Ellia, I love how gleeful you sound upon getting the card that normally turns people pale.

My first question is going to be for Jeff. Into the breach you go, sir. Are you ready?

11/07/2026, 16:17 - Jeff: I’m ready!

11/07/2026, 16:18 - Finbarre:

If my research is right, you’ve spent more than a decade writing about mortality, ghosts and the afterlife.

So the question from the Death card is: has your own relationship with the future changed?

11/07/2026, 16:19 - Ellia: Wow, that’s such an interesting question. I can’t wait to hear what Jeff says.

11/07/2026, 16:20 - Jeff:

My perspective on the Death card is, in one sense, like a Buddhist perspective: death awaits us all, and that is what makes life more vibrant, more special and sweet.

If we were all condemned to death tomorrow and then there was some sort of reprieve, imagine how gleeful and joyful you would be at all the mundane things you see around you. If you were given a new lease on life, even for one more day….

In tarot, I see the Death card as the end of things that you don’t need, sloughing off the old. But to me, it is also an affirmation of the moment, of the now. It is less about thinking of the future and more about being super-present.

As far as it relates to Charming Disaster and how we relate to death in our writing, I think that has come to the fore more and more personally as we’ve delved into these subjects.

11/07/2026, 16:23 - Ellia:

I would chime in as well. I love all of that, Jeff, and it’s very close to what you and I have been talking about on our own over the last few days.

Death also indicates change. As we ourselves get older, that is something that keeps coming up in conversation: how can we roll with those changes? How can we gracefully keep going?

With the grace of this dancer, how do you keep going when your body doesn’t want to do certain things any more? Can we gracefully accept that, as things change, we can keep going with them?

I think about it often. We see musical peers of ours dealing with health issues. I myself have been dealing with some health issues this year. How to deal with that and keep going is the question.

11/07/2026, 16:24 - Jeff: To wit: our PT exercises this morning.

11/07/2026, 16:24 - Ellia: And our upcoming all-theremin album lol.

11/07/2026, 16:25 - Finbarre: Jeff and Ellia, you each plucked that grisly skull up in that answer and kicked it out of the graveyard. No follow-up needed. Wow.

11/07/2026, 16:25 - Finbarre: OK, Ellia next!

11/07/2026, 16:25 - Jeff: Haha.

11/07/2026, 16:25 - Finbarre: Have you got a deck of cards ready to hand?

11/07/2026, 16:25 - Ellia: I have a couple!

11/07/2026, 16:26 - Ellia: Here, I’ll show you what I’ve got.

11/07/2026, 16:26 - Jeff: I have a few, Ellia, if you want me to pull any specific one.

11/07/2026, 16:27 - Ellia:

11/07/2026, 16:27 - Ellia:

11/07/2026, 16:27 - Ellia:

Right now, I’m at home and Jeff is at our rehearsal studio, which is also where the vast collection of tarot decks lives.

My two favourite decks that we have there are the Bea Nettles deck, I forget what its actual name is, and Todd Alcott’s Pulp Tarot. So we could use one of those too.

11/07/2026, 16:28 - Finbarre: Ellia, could you pull one from any deck of your choice, plus one from your oracle deck just for flavour? Jeff can pull the final card a little later.

11/07/2026, 16:29 - Finbarre: With those two cards, Ellia, I’ll come up with your next question. I’m curious to see what you get.

11/07/2026, 16:29 - Ellia: OK, here we go.

11/07/2026, 16:31 - Ellia:

11/07/2026, 16:31 - Finbarre: Also, I adore how much love that RWS deck has visibly received over the years. That’s a trusty deck right there.

11/07/2026, 16:31 - Ellia:

11/07/2026, 16:31 - Ellia:

That Rider-Waite-Smith deck doesn’t even have a flap to keep it shut, so it has to have a rubber band around it if I’m taking it with me anywhere.

11/07/2026, 16:32 - Ellia: I love these two together.

11/07/2026, 16:33 - Finbarre:

Those two unlikely cards make a very interesting chimera. So my tarot question is: when creative conflict begins to feel like chaos, how do you know when to stand your ground, stay and fight, or just abandon a project?

11/07/2026, 16:33 - Jeff: Yes.

11/07/2026, 16:35 - Ellia:

We together, and I alone, are very bad at abandoning projects. We are tenacious. And, um, I don’t know how to answer that.

But I’m also going to push back a little bit on that interpretation of the Five of Wands, because although this could certainly be interpreted as conflict, I also think of this card as being in the thick of it.

What are they doing in this card? Are they battling? Are they building something? Yes, it looks like chaos in this moment. But the querent might be all of these individuals in the card. It could be the same person in a sort of time-lapse photo.

You’re trying stuff, you’re experimenting, you’re doing your R&D, not to be confused with R&B. So I think the only way out is through. That’s sort of my answer to the question. The only way out is through, just working to get to the other side of it, and the process will inform the outcome.

11/07/2026, 16:35 - Ellia:

When I said I love these two cards together, it’s because right now we’re kind of in the thick of preparing to get back on the road after being off tour for the spring season.

And so the Five of Wands followed by the Getaway is very auspicious to me. What will come out of the process is that we will get to be back on the road doing our thing, I hope.

11/07/2026, 16:37 - Jeff:

Yes, exactly as Ellia says, I feel that is a card for getting back on the road. Sometimes there is strife, confusion and friction.

Sometimes the best way to handle that is simply to leave. Just drop everything, don’t engage, and let it go. It’s a kind of tai chi perspective.

11/07/2026, 16:37 - Ellia: Also want to mention the artwork on The Getaway card is by Devon Grieg, a tattoo artist based in Nashville who has tattooed us both.

11/07/2026, 16:38 - Ellia: And the song associated with that card is “Ocean City”.

11/07/2026, 16:38 - Finbarre:

I love that cheeky reinterpretation of, yeah “It’s not a fight, it’s a building and they’re building something great!”

I’m going to see that every time I look at this card now, that instead of some kind of riot or rabble, we’re looking at people who either enjoy clunking sticks together. Why not? Who doesn’t? Or possibly building a bridge too? I do that that.

This will be the last question I’ll be asking and this is the both of you… and this has been given to you as a Gift card one moment.

11/07/2026, 16:38 - Jeff: Though you can never really get away from a tattoo.

11/07/2026, 16:39 - Ellia: Five of Wands as RELENTLESS OPTIMISM lol.

11/07/2026, 16:39 - Finbarre:

11/07/2026, 16:39 - Finbarre:

This one was given to you both by Callie Kazumi, who is a British-Japanese writer who writes freaky, dark, rather unnerving books.

One of them’s called Greedy. Highly recommended.

This is a very psychedelic card for you both.

11/07/2026, 16:40 - Ellia:

Oh, I love this one. Seven of Cups, all your dreams come true. Piercing the mortal veil and this bounty is what’s on the other side. You don’t even know what all these things are just that they’re so much of it. They’re so much richness to this to explore.

11/07/2026, 16:41 - Ellia:

Also, I’m definitely interested in checking out her work. This sounds right up my alley.

11/07/2026, 16:41 - Jeff:

There’s so many choices and like which choice do you want to choose? Do you want to go with the dream, the kind of the fantasy? Do you want to go with reality? Do you want to go with a head with your? That looks like a cup. Do you want to go with a hookah? There’s so many ways to go with this. I love it. It’s so beautiful.

11/07/2026, 16:41 - Finbarre:

You know, I pulled this one out this morning from a Rider-Waite-Smith deck, and I spotted something that I’ve not noticed in 30 years.

That the laurel crown that is suspended in the air, like some kind of apparition.

If you look at the pedestal that it’s actually hovering above, there is a detail that looks like a skull, almost as if to say, revel in fantasy, but beware of hubris.

11/07/2026, 16:42 - Jeff:

Yes, exactly. Or is this glory beyond death? Is this somehow immortality in that sense?

11/07/2026, 16:43 - Finbarre:

Ellia and Jeff, this is the final Tarot DMs question to both of you on the Seven of Cups. And I need to ask about the idea of you having like a research table or a desk that probably is spilling over with Victorian fiction or books of folklore, psychic manuals, obscure texts on natural history or found objects or whatever it is you have in your houses.

How do you choose which fascination deserves to become real in your songs?

11/07/2026, 16:45 - Ellia:

Oh, that’s a really interesting question, too. First of all, how did you get into our houses?

Our studio, I’m picturing the desk that is there that is covered with objects, curiosities, bones, and strange things.

And yes, you’re exactly accurate about the bookshelf contents.

11/07/2026, 16:45 - Jeff:

Oh, that’s a wonderful question. I see as our studio here, which I’m in our rehearsal studio, as being inside a cabinet of curiosities. There’s so many objects here. There’s so many books. There’s so many things that friends and fans have sent us. There’s so many tarot decks. There’s artwork here.

It is like just casting your eye around…. you see things that you haven’t seen in a long time or maybe you’ve never noticed. And it’s kind of like gazing upon a tarot card where you’re observing something and it’s what your own consciousness is resonating with or needs to associate with at that moment that that draws your attention or adds some new insight to what you’re observing.

And we… I’ll let Ellia continue with that.

11/07/2026, 16:45 - Ellia:

The kind of songwriters that we are, people very frequently say, oh, you should write a song about X. And X is usually something that is perfectly interesting on the face of it. And almost never do those things become songs. Not because we’re resistant to ideas, just it rarely works out that way. So we do have a file of stuff that it would be cool to have a song about and once in a while, something does come out of that vault and into a song. But I feel like there’s not that much choice about it.

11/07/2026, 16:46 - Jeff:

Our desk at the studio.

11/07/2026, 16:48 - Ellia:

I think that there’s a kind of feeling of openness or casting about.

There’s a state of mind where you’re kind of letting the gates open to see what comes in. And that state of noticing and curiosity and exploration is the thing that is required for a song to get in.

It’s much less about directing it and making those deliberate choices than it is about seeing what kind of sparkles. What is the shiny bit that catches your eye?

Which is not to say that there aren’t songs that we write deliberately. Like there certainly are. We’ll be like “Oh, we ought to have a song about bats or manta rays or poisonous plants”

And like sometimes we will we will set out to do that purposefully. A lot of the time it is just something that calls to us and then you you chase it down.

11/07/2026, 16:49 - Ellia:

I would add that that state of mind is very similar or even identical to the state of mind that you need to be in if you’re doing a tarot card reading interpretation.

Like, you need to be open and noticing and letting it come to you. You know, you’re not like shoving the planchette around the board. You’re like letting it move you, to mix metaphors of the occult.

11/07/2026, 16:50 - Jeff:

I completely agree with what Ellia is saying as far as the state of mind of being in to let inspiration come to you.

And, you know, we might be starting a song and we don’t even know what the words are yet. We’re just following through music, which is kind of a, you know, that is pre-language kind of connection with the absolute right there, I think.

11/07/2026, 16:51 - Finbarre:

Thank you for sharing those answers and for that picture. My eyes are lingering on each one of those peculiar curiosities and that Wunderkammer that you’ve shown me. Something tells me that that probably expands 360 degrees.

I need you to do two things for me.

So, Jeff, I’d like you to pull a card, whatever deck you fancy, for the next person. And that will be their Gift card. Ellia, I’d like you to tell me a little bit about those Oracle cards that I saw before with your faces on.

11/07/2026, 16:55 - Ellia:

Oh, sure. So we’ve used tarot in our own creative practice for a long time now, at least ten years. Out of that grew a kind of show where we would have audience members draw cards from a deck, and that would determine which songs we played.

We had a concordance where each of the Major Arcana, and subsequently many Minor Arcana cards, corresponded to specific songs of ours. Over time, we started to really want a deck that was more specific to our world, especially as we got down to Minor Arcana cards that were less obviously significant in terms of how they connected to our work.

When we were getting ready to release our album Supernatural History, we decided that was the moment to embark on this deck project. We enlisted artists from all over the world. We have about two dozen artists represented in our deck, which turns out not to be a tarot deck at all, but an oracle deck. I’m sure your listeners know it is sort of like an all-Majors deck, where the meaning of the cards is specific to the deck itself.

These are all archetypes, characters or concepts that show up in our songs. Each of the cards relates to one of our songs. The Getaway card that you saw above corresponds to our song “Ocean City”, which is about a road trip in a stolen car. We also have cards where the song title and the card title are the same.

Because we have so many different artists represented, and because we had to give them creative control over how they interpreted each song to make the image, we inadvertently created a truly magical object.

I think it has several different stages of interpretation, and a lot of different creative energies went into it. Each of the cards is in a totally different style. Even Jeff and I each did a couple of cards ourselves.

There are currently 72 cards in the deck, corresponding to all the songs on our released albums. I guess when we release the next album, we’ll have to make some more cards for it.

11/07/2026, 16:54 - Ellia:

This is the card for “Devil May Care”, illustrated by Madame Onça, creator of the World Spirit Tarot.

11/07/2026, 16:55 - Ellia:

And also, I should add, we made this deck not just for us to run a show with, but it’s an actual working deck. And we sell them at our shows and we sell them online. And they’re beautiful objects. We went all out with the bells and whistles. So they have silver gilt edging.

There’s a guidebook to a guide to divination that was written by a bartender poet friend of ours who did his own interpretation of everything with erudite quotations. It’s a really neat thing. And it’s one of the projects I’m most proud of that we’ve ever done.

11/07/2026, 16:56 - Jeff:

11/07/2026, 16:57 - Jeff:

I have drawn the Knight of Cups from the Fergus Hall tarot deck created for the James Bond film Live and Let Die, which is a wonderful, wonderful deck.

11/07/2026, 16:58 - Finbarre:

Jeff, you are a man of exceptional taste. That was the second tarot deck I bought in, I want to say, 1993, maybe 1994.

And I was just thinking back to Ellia’s description of this barman providing inspiration and stories for the cards. Why is it that all bar people basically personify the Knight of Cups? I love that connection and the way things have come together for you guys.

Okay, we’re almost at the end of our Tarot DMs chat. But before we go, do you have any tours coming up or anything you’d like to tell the reader or listener about?

11/07/2026, 17:00 - Ellia:

We have an extensive string of US tour dates coming up this fall, starting in mid-September and going through early November in the Midwest and the southeastern United States.

Then, in early December, we’ve got a handful of New England dates.

I am also working on booking our second UK tour for spring 2027. That is in its early planning stages. So if anybody in the UK wants to suggest places for us to play, we are actively seeking gigs for late April and early May.

11/07/2026, 17:01 - Finbarre: NOTTINGHAM!

11/07/2026, 17:03 - Finbarre:

Ellia and Jeff, it has been an absolute pleasure having you on Tarot DMs. I will leave you to your conjured cabaret!

11/07/2026, 17:02 - Ellia:

Finbarre, this has been such a fun time chatting with you. I can’t believe a whole hour has gone by. It’s been such a pleasure chatting and talking about tarot with you.

What a perfectly delightful way to have an interview. I don’t know why everybody doesn’t do it this way.

11/07/2026, 17:03 - Jeff:

I so hope that we can meet in person and swap some more stories about tarot and life as well. This has been a joy. Thank you so much.

Meet previous guests on Tarot DMs

Callie Kazumi is a British-Japanese writer who started work on her first book after being gifted Stephen King’s On Writing by her father. She lives in London with her husband, their Bichon Frisé, Betsy, and cat, Weeman.

Follow Callie on Instagram: @callieuntitled

23/06/2026, 19:31 - Finbarre:

Hi, it’s Finbarre and welcome to Tarot DMs. Today I’m joined by Callie Kazumi, a British-Japanese author of the psychological thrillers Cuckoo and Greedy.

Callie writes sharp, unsettling stories about secrets and dark appetites.

She is here for three cards, so let us see what this Madame of the Macabre reveals.

23/06/2026, 19:33 - Callie Kazumi:

Excited to be here. Let’s go.

23/06/2026, 19:35 - Finbarre:

You sound far, far too active on what could potentially be one of the hottest days of the year, if not one of our recorded temperatures. My cat at the moment is sprawled out in that way that only cats can. I think instead of being this feline embodiment of svelte elegance, it is just a ginger profusion of legs. And in fact, it seems to have now more legs than it had before. And it’s splayed out in every compass direction. Do you have any pets?

23/06/2026, 19:36 - Finbarre:

23/06/2026, 19:36 - Callie Kazumi:

I’m absolutely not active. I really, really struggle in the heat, actually. I don’t think

I’ve slept or eaten in days. It’s not great. I do have pets. I have a kitten who’s four months old called Weeman, my husband’s Scottish. And we kept saying Weeman’s coming soon and it stuck.

He’s currently splooted very similarly to your cat. And we have a Bichon Frisé called Betsy, who is sitting on the sofa staring at me and panting, wondering why she’s not been getting her afternoon walks and doesn’t understand that it’s because it’s so blooming hot. You can even see her panting in the picture I’ll send. It’s such a shame. We’re just all struggling.

23/06/2026, 19:37 - Callie Kazumi:

23/06/2026, 19:37 - Callie Kazumi:

23/06/2026, 19:38 - Finbarre:

“Splooted” is a word that’s now been stolen. Thank you for that. I will be putting that to good use. And the little teeny tiny dog you’ve got there, it doesn’t look real. Did this dog just appear as if by magic one day? It is definitely a regular dog, right?

23/06/2026, 19:38 - Finbarre: TOO CUTE TO EXIST

23/06/2026, 19:39 - Callie Kazumi:

Yeah, she looks like a tiny little lamb. She’s so sweet. She’s so cute. But she is very much real. Luckily for me.

23/06/2026, 19:40 - Finbarre:

Every time you see a dog like that in a film, they always turn out to be some kind of ravening hellbeast. So I’ve got a question about the tarot. How experienced are you with the cards? Is it something that you picked up as a teenager? Is it a recent discovery? Or are you coming into this cold?

23/06/2026, 19:43 - Callie Kazumi:

With tarot, basically, during COVID in 2020, when everyone else was becoming very obsessed with baking banana bread, I fell down a hole and got super interested in paganism.

It’s very on brand for me. Honestly, I feel like if you had approached me to enter a cult in 2020, I would have fallen hook, line and sinker.

I was reading about paganism and then it expanded from there and discovered tarot. I got a card set and I did a couple of the past, present, future pulls, but that was pretty much it.

I would not say I’m experienced, but I probably have a better understanding than the average person who doesn’t own a set of tarot cards, I guess I could say.

23/06/2026, 19:45 - Finbarre: I wasn’t baking banana bread... to keep sane. I listened to every song by the Cure, ranked each one individually and gave myself the quest to find out which was their best album through SCIENCE. Turns out it is The Head On The Door and I have the data.

23/06/2026, 19:45 - Finbarre: Anyway.

23/06/2026, 19:45 - Finbarre: Your first card.

23/06/2026, 19:46 - Finbarre: Now, as I have been galavanting about at festivals to record Season Two of the Tarot Interviews podcast, yours is the first Tarot DMs chat I have done this month so the theme card was set today in honour of this ungodly heatwave.

23/06/2026, 19:47 - Finbarre: You get...

23/06/2026, 19:47 - Finbarre:

23/06/2026, 19:47 - Callie Kazumi: Fucking hell do I get the sun

23/06/2026, 19:47 - Finbarre: You get more.

23/06/2026, 19:47 - Callie Kazumi: Can’t believe you pulled that today of all days 😂😂😂😂

23/06/2026, 19:50 - Finbarre:

Okay Callie your first tarot question so let’s be frank… your books are twisted and your voice when I’ve just spoken to you there has a humor and an energy to it.

Well an energy if you weren’t reclining like some Victorian lady upon a chaise longue or however it is we’re spending this heat.

Where does the joy that I heard fit into your dark fiction?

23/06/2026, 19:53 - Callie Kazumi:

Do you know what? I think I am a bit of a Chandler Bing, if you have watched Friends. I’ve always used humour as kind of a fallback in everything, really. I think my sense of humour is very dry, sarcastic, quite sardonic. And it’s something that it’s just very like a part of me. I don’t even really think about it or realise that I’m doing it. But if I feel uncomfortable or there is something really terrible going on, I’m not very in touch with my emotions.

So I guess I just fall to humour as an easy way to process things and get through things. I find as well that humour is something that just connects everyone. And if you share a sense of humour, then that’s like such an important thing for kind of building relationships and using as a foundation for friendships on. And I think that comes across in my writing. I think that greedy, especially.

If you had to put my personality into a book, it’s 100% greedy. I think it’s very dryly funny and there is humour there. And some people might miss that. But then I think people that know me and have that same kind of really dark, dry sense of humour and the cynicism will see it dripping through so many of the ridiculous scenes in that book.

So I guess that’s the light. I just always think humour is the most light of all emotions and kind of... Is humour an emotion? I don’t know. But yeah, sorry, my head’s a bit foggy, to be honest. I’m so blooming hot. I can’t believe you pulled the sun either. I can’t believe that. That’s absolutely mad.

23/06/2026, 19:56 - Finbarre: I’m curious, do you find yourself giggling as you are writing away or is it more of an abstract/cerebral experience?

23/06/2026, 19:57 - Callie Kazumi:

No, I definitely laugh when I’m writing sometimes, especially the lambshank scene in Greedy. I was laughing. I just thought it was so ridiculous. The whole thing was silly. It had started off being written as a sex scene and then just developed something much, much weirder. And I just sat laughing away at my laptop.

23/06/2026, 19:59 - Finbarre:

I can just picture you emerging from a writing room with some kind of devilish, bizarre grin on your face and people going “What have you done???”

Right, we’re on to the second card.

Now, this is a Wild card.

This is one I’m going to pluck from the deck whenever you tell me.

So when you hear this message, I will be shuffling away.

When you say stop or write stop, I’ll pop whatever card we get on the cushion just by the little octopus who’s helping me out today.

23/06/2026, 20:00 - Finbarre:

23/06/2026, 20:00 - Callie Kazumi: Stop!

23/06/2026, 20:00 - Finbarre: *stops*

23/06/2026, 20:01 - Finbarre:

23/06/2026, 20:01 - Finbarre: What do you reckon it’ll be?

23/06/2026, 20:03 - Callie Kazumi: Pentacles

23/06/2026, 20:04 - Finbarre: Let’s find out...

23/06/2026, 20:04 - Finbarre:

23/06/2026, 20:05 - Finbarre: Looks like your Covid lockdown was your superhero origin story. Well done!

23/06/2026, 20:05 - Callie Kazumi: That’s mad

23/06/2026, 20:06 - Finbarre:

I have to say that for me, this isn’t a carf that comes up often. It’s one of holding on tightly.

So, of course, we have here a figure who is clutching a pentacle to their chest. It’s mine. I was going to put on a Golum voice, but I think I hopefully have spared you that.

Of course, he’s got one on the head and there’s a couple between the feet as well. So it’s about security, but also possessiveness and a fear of loss.

23/06/2026, 20:08 - Finbarre:

I think if the card was asking something, it would be, what am I protecting and is it still worth protecting?

So for the Four of Pentacles, I’ll ask you, as you’ve written about reclaiming identity and your name, has that changed your idea of creative ownership?

23/06/2026, 20:08 - Callie Kazumi: In what sense?

23/06/2026, 20:10 - Finbarre:

I was thinking of the way that you’ve previously written about reclaiming Kazumi, if this would change the parts of your identity or experience that belong in the work.

23/06/2026, 20:16 - Callie Kazumi:

I think that the reason that I write so much about kind of identity on my sub stack is because I think there’s so much to explore there.

And I’m not 100% sure where I stand on my views with these types of things.

I wrote a blog post. You might have seen it just about.

I didn’t even feel that I had the right to use the name Kazumi, even though it’s my passport.

And I think a lot of this kind of insecurity comes from being second gen immigrant, but also I’m very white passing.

And I think that it definitely has 100%. It’s given me what I feel is a foundation to be able to write books set in Japan.

Greedy is set in Japan, obviously, and Hazeline is half white, half Japanese.

And my third book, which is currently with my agent, is also set in Japan.

And I think there would have been a sort of fear had I written under my married name that people would assume I didn’t have the right to tell these stories.

I think it’s quite an interesting thing because there is always this question of whose stories do we have the right to be telling in fiction, especially when we’re making things up, essentially.

The whole point of fiction is to envision a different life and create a new world.

But then when you’re speaking about marginalized voices or people who have faced discrimination and you’re not someone who has experienced that, then you’re writing from a place of privilege where you’re having the opportunity to get paid to imagine other people suffering.

And it’s an interesting kind of concept to delve into because there needs to be more diversity in the books that we’re reading.

We need to be seeing more books where the main character is a character of color or LGBTQ.

And obviously we’re getting much better, but it’s still a minority.

And I think that that responsibility lies with the publishing houses to be buying more because I don’t believe that there are not the writers out there able to speak their stories and write characters from their own lived experiences.

On the other side of the spectrum, I’ve written a book about cannibals and I’m not a cannibal. So I think it’s an interesting thing.

What right does our identity give us to be able to tell a certain story?

My next book, my third one, I’m out of contract, so it’s not been bought by anyone just yet. And as I said, it’s with my agent.

That is different from Greedy in that the characters are Japanese, but completely Japanese.

I found it very difficult to write because the book is about work culture and workplace toxicity, which is why I want to set it in Japan, because they have such an extreme work culture that it’s very easy to satirize in a way that people in the West will understand, but still be authentic and realistic.

There’s a lot of things that happen in particularly places like Tokyo that couldn’t happen in the UK because of our workplace laws and unions and things like that.

But at the same time, I was very conscious of writing something which might paint a negative portrayal of a country that I haven’t lived or grown up in.

So it’s difficult.

There’s always research that can be done. I did do the research that went into this book was so extensive. Obviously, we’ve been out there a few times. I’ve met with so many people who have had the opportunity to work there and interview them. Even that, I felt was pushing myself to a place that potentially wasn’t my place to be speaking.

I just hope that the people that do read the book and who have worked in Japan, particularly in a toxic environment, and experience the things that some of my characters have experienced with struggles relating to their culture of tradition and conformity.

I hope that those people will read it and feel that I brought justice to it, to their experience. I feel like having written from my name, I did put a lot of myself in the book as well.

I’ve always wanted to live in Japan.

I think that realistically, being neurodivergent and being unable to conform the minority of the time, I think I would find it very difficult. So a lot of that went into the characters’ background.

23/06/2026, 20:17 - Callie Kazumi:

Cat had moved to cooler pastures. Dog is still sulking but no longer panting.

23/06/2026, 20:17 - Callie Kazumi:

23/06/2026, 20:19 - Finbarre: Now I have cushion AND floorboard envy. Gorgeous.

23/06/2026, 20:22 - Finbarre:

Again, distracted by your gorgeous photos.

On a more serious note, I’m touched that you’re able to share that uncertainty, that journey that you’ve taken.

And that leads us to your third card.

This one was chosen by a band from the US, from Brooklyn, called The Dream Eaters.

Their videos have to be seen to be believed.

If you haven’t heard of them and seen their work, I get the feeling you might enjoy it and they’ve gifted you the third card. It’s this one.

23/06/2026, 20:23 - Finbarre:

23/06/2026, 20:23 - Callie Kazumi: Great pick

23/06/2026, 20:25 - Finbarre:

So last question for you, Callie. I imagine being a writer is like being in the centre of a roulette wheel with often uncertainty spinning around you. Has there been a point in your writing life where that wheel has stopped and things suddenly made more sense?

23/06/2026, 20:27 - Finbarre:

Mine has decided that the day is subpar

23/06/2026, 20:31 - Callie Kazumi:

I think it was when I was writing Greedy, to be honest. I think I’d written lots of books before Cuckoo and they were all terrible. And it’s one of those things where I was always writing for myself and I just love to write and I have to be writing all the time. And Cuckoo was the first book that I wrote, which I felt was sellable and really quite decent. But I didn’t feel like it was very me just writing because I love to write and there had been no consideration going into it about me and my brand identity and all these kind of business things that you have to think about when you are an author. And obviously it got bought and it was a two book contract. So I had to try and write something similar for the second book and I just couldn’t. I found it really difficult. I did. Well, I mean, I could because I did. And I wrote a whole new commercial psychological thriller about a missing girl in London. But all the time in the back of my head, I had this strange idea about a man who falls into a job working as a private chef for a cannibal in Japan. And it was all I thought and I had this real chip on my shoulder where I thought I can’t write this because this isn’t what they want.

This isn’t what they’ve paid for. And this isn’t what they publish. I have to give them something similar to Cuckoo.

So I wrote that book and sent it off to them and then very, very, very quickly started writing Greedy and it fell out of my hands onto the keyboard within like a month. I think it was written because I had just been festering and thinking about this and obsessing over the characters internally for months and months.

So I wrote it and I had the most fun and I just felt like this was exactly what I wanted to be doing. And I sent it to my agent and I said, look, I know they probably won’t buy this.

She was dubious as well. She was like “Cannibals? Tricky sell” But at the end of the day, she really enjoyed it.

I think that was the first moment where I was like, oh, my God, she really enjoys this. It felt like I was getting validation because for some reason, Greedy just felt more like me.

I sent the book. I sent them both. And very luckily for me, my editor also loved Greedy.

I think that was a moment where I realized that maybe my I had found my I felt like I had found my voice and my brand as an author and a writer.

I knew where I fit in. And it’s this kind of it’s not literary, but I don’t think it’s super commercially there. I think it’s kind of a book club level. I have a lot of I have a lot to say.

I’ve got a lot of opinions. I’m quite political, even though I don’t talk about it online. Being able to write these kind of really strange, weird, dark, funny books about characters who struggle with things that I find so deeply fascinating psychologically and culturally. It’s just such a gift. And I just thought, bloody hell, I can’t believe they bought this and they liked it.

That’s so lucky. I’m so privileged to have that and to be able to write something that I actually truly love writing.

So, yeah, that was probably the moment that I thought, wow, I could actually do something here and not have to kind of concede or commercialize myself to please the mass public.

But then that said, you know, as I said, I’m out of contract now. So who knows what will happen? Maybe this is where the wheel picks up again.

I think every every author feels like this when they’re out of contract and they’re waiting to see if their contract will be renewed or or what will happen.

Yeah, it’s I think being an author is always you’re always spinning.

Really, you’re always nervous. Someone’s not going to like it or you’re going to write something that’s going to end up being a waste of time because no one’s going to want it.

I think that the only way to get past that is to just write because you really love it, not because you want to make money, not because you want to be known or famous or all these things.

I think just if you just write because you love it and the wheel will always be stopped and steady and you will feel secure in yourself and your work.

23/06/2026, 20:48 - Callie Kazumi: Thank you so much for having me!! Seven of cups came to mind for some reason!

23/06/2026, 20:50 - Callie Kazumi:

23/06/2026, 20:51 - Finbarre:

What a wonderful energy to finish on, Callie.

From where I am in Beeston, I’m going to reach across the country and grant you the power of having the hands of fate.

Now here, you can place your thumb on the scale or pull from the cards of destiny or however you want to influence the next person that I speak to in terms of what card they get.

And I’d like you to choose one.

So are you going to bestow upon them something nice and easy? Is it going to be a card that asks difficult questions?

The power is yours.

23/06/2026, 20:54 - Callie Kazumi: Thank you!!

23/06/2026, 20:57 - Finbarre:

Kelly, that is a gorgeous depiction of, frankly, one of the trippiest cards in the tarot.

Please give my love to Weeman and Betsy.

And thank you so much for joining me on Tarot DMs.

23/06/2026, 20:58 - Finbarre:

You can find Callie’s books, Cuckoo and Greedy, wherever you buy your fabulous literature, and find out more at calliekazumi.com

Don’t forget that Series 2 of the Tarot Interviews podcast is available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Hear which cards performers and festival-goers pulled, and some of them were dressed in battle armour. See you there!

Meet more guests on Tarot DMs

Since 2015, The Dream Eaters have evolved from a dream-pop band into a full-on video art project with an extensive catalogue of weird and darkly humorous music videos accompanying their catchy pop songs. The duo began working together after Elizabeth LeBaron, originally from Calgary, and Jake Zavracky, originally from Boston, met while bartending in Brooklyn’s Gowanus neighborhood.

They released several EPs before their full-length albums We Are A Curse (2017) and Pagan Love (2018), touring frequently across the Eastern U.S. and Canada. In 2019, they began developing the web series The Dream Eating Freakshow, which launched in 2020. Since then – alongside drummer/dancer/weird guy Steve Fugitt – they’ve released hundreds of bizarre, highly stylized videos across TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, growing a devoted cult fanbase. In 2025 they released 3 EPs and their new album “Year End Report”. The band continues to tour extensively across the U.S. and Canada.

Find The Dream Eaters on Instagram, more links are here

13/05/2026, 20:31 - Finbarre:

Welcome to Tarot DMs with Finbarre, the show where the cards open the conversation and the guests decide how strange things get.

Today, I’m joined by the Dream Eaters, a Brooklyn band and video art universe who describe themselves beautifully and alarmingly as the Carpenters meets Slayer.

Their world is a woozy place of sweet melodies, deadpan horror, emotional wreckage, supermarket doom, blood, bodies, pills and pop hooks.

So today, we’ll let the Tarot lead us through that world, discovering how something ugly can sound beautiful.

The cards are shuffled, the portal of wrongness is now open. This is the Dream Eaters on Tarot DMs.

13/05/2026, 20:32 - Finbarre:

Elizabeth and Jake, hello!

13/05/2026, 20:32 - Jake:

Hey, it’s great to be here.

13/05/2026, 20:32 - Elizabeth:

Hi, we are so excited to be here. I’ve never done an interview on WhatsApp before, but I do really love voice memos as a medium. So yeah, appreciate the creative platform.

13/05/2026, 20:33 - Elizabeth: I also really love the idea of “Supermarket Doom” as a genre!

13/05/2026, 20:34 - Jake: stop distracting him Elizabeth

13/05/2026, 20:35 - Finbarre:

Oh, thank you so much for your sweet words. Well, the idea of doing interviews over WhatsApp came about when I lost my voice due to COVID and it seemed more manageable.

Because at the time I was doing a podcast, couldn’t really speak. And this felt right. And it turns out that millennials or anyone younger gravitate towards this medium anyway. So why more people don’t do it? I don’t know.

But anyway, what have we got here? You love the idea of supermarket doom as a genre. Yes. I’ve seen your videos. I’ve been listening to your music and that’s why I had to reach out across the Atlantic and say “I need to speak to these people” I love how wonderfully strange all of this is!

Before we get into that, I’d like to find out a little bit about how much you know about tarot and if it’s something that you’ve been brought up with, a recent discovery, something you happened upon in one of your videos. I’d love to know.

13/05/2026, 20:36 - Jake:

I don’t know anything about it at all. So I might be sort of slow on answering some of these questions. I don’t really know how much it’s integrated into the interview process here, but I don’t know anything about tarot at all.

13/05/2026, 20:36 - Elizabeth:

My experience with tarot is minimal. I was gifted a tarot deck, which I understand is the proper way to acquire a tarot deck is that it’s a gift. Is that a thing? So I was given one and I just kind of didn’t know where to start. So it is still a decoration on my shelf, I fear.

But I have friends who really love doing their daily draws. And I like the concept of it being more of an invitation to look at something through a specific lens as opposed to like, this is telling you your future. It’s more so here’s kind of a prompt to apply to what’s happening in your life right now. So I really like that idea.

13/05/2026, 20:39 - Finbarre:

Jake, every time a card comes up, I’ll be guiding you through the definitions, throwing in a few meanings and ideas that are special to me regarding that card, plus those of people that I’ve read cards for.

So you won’t be going into this cold, don’t worry.

And from that, I’ll be thinking of a question.

Elizabeth, you’re absolutely right about cards should be given to other people because I have my own ideas on capitalism. anyway, but because tarot is a story told to another person inspired by a card, why not give the medium to that person as well?

It makes perfect sense.

We’re going to start with the first card, which is the Anchor card. This is the one that everyone gets on Tarot DMs.

This is, oh… I think you’re going to like this one.

13/05/2026, 20:40 - Finbarre: When it gets revealed I want to hear vibes and impressions. No wrong answers. Well maybe, I’ll just get the snarky emails not you.

13/05/2026, 20:40 - Finbarre:

13/05/2026, 20:40 - Finbarre: THE ACE OF WANDS! Exciting!

13/05/2026, 20:40 - Jake:

I like the name of it, the Ace of Wands. I don’t really know what to say about it. I love the picture and I love the Ace of Wands. So far, I’m into this. It’s very mysterious.

13/05/2026, 20:41 - Elizabeth:

Ace of Wands. Okay, so I’m just going to tell you my first impression of this. I know absolutely nothing about it, but we’re holding, you know, we’re holding kind of like a wand, a staff. So is making me think that somebody is proceeding with purpose or kind of like moving about with like leadership, I guess, comes to mind, question mark?

13/05/2026, 20:41 - Jake:

Interestingly, while I was messing around with this daily tarot draw thing, maybe I shouldn’t do this at the same time. Maybe this is bad mojo. But this thing online, I drew the Page of Wands. So I don’t know what that means. Probably nothing. Probably something. Who knows?

13/05/2026, 20:42 - Finbarre: You’re crossing the streams you maniac! Don’t you know what you have done! It’s. Fine.

13/05/2026, 20:43 - Jake:

Oh, I like that. I like that reference, crossing the streams.

13/05/2026, 20:44 - Finbarre:

Oh, if you want hideously outdated 80s references, you’ve come to the right place.

So Ace of Wands, the classical description of this card, and it’s one of my very favorites.

In fact, it was one of the original icons for tarot interviews. I just repurposed the stick into a microphone. But Ace of Wands, it’s a spark before the flame. Of course, this is the first card in the element of fire. And it’s about ignition, a fresh creative force. It’s one of opportunity. It’s one of enthusiasm and originality. And it’s like, stay by this fire because good things will happen. Often represents passion and sexuality, ambition, performance in all of the respects. So what we’re looking at here is action or momentum. Does that seem about right? I don’t know if this is quite where you are in the world right now, but this is Go Time according to this card.

13/05/2026, 20:45 - Finbarre: Maybe smores.

13/05/2026, 20:46 - Elizabeth:

Go time and action resonate. May always seems to be the sneakiest busy month of the year for me. So lots of travel ahead, lots of execution, like lots of projects happening. That feels good.

13/05/2026, 20:46 - Elizabeth: Mmmm

13/05/2026, 20:46 - Jake:

Well, we are about to go on tour for much of the rest of the year.

We’ll be on tour, you know, in short bursts, but over the course of the rest of the year. So it does sort of make sense that we would be in a time of action.

There’s been a lot of things happening lately around that and just around releasing music and releasing videos. There’s a special kind of action to the time right now.

13/05/2026, 20:46 - Jake: Maycember

13/05/2026, 20:48 - Finbarre:

As the fires haven’t quite burnt down this month from the beginning where Beltane occurred, let me think of an Ace of Wands style question for you.

Okay, so I’m thinking of first sparks.

When it comes to one of your songs, what starts them off?

Is it a phrase, a melody, characters, a visual gag, a mood, or embarrassment?

13/05/2026, 20:50 - Jake:

There is no one answer to that. They all start differently.

The one thing I’ve noticed about my process over the years is nothing really ever happens the same way.

There’s a bunch of different ways things can come to me.

Sometimes they come to me from, I’ll just make a beat, so to speak.

So I’ll just make something that sounds like a good sort of instrumental.

I’ll just, you know, it’ll just kind of come to me. What should go over that?

A lot of times it is a phrase, like you said, where I’ll just think of a phrase.

I’ll just think of a phrase while I’m making dinner in my kitchen. That’s where things often come to me. You know, it’ll just work and it’ll resonate. I mean, that’s the answer to everything.

If it resonates, somehow it’ll just resonate with me. I’ll just be thinking about it later. I’ll just be, you know, it will resonate somehow. And I’ll know this is the thing that I want to pursue right now.

That’s what the usual spark is.

13/05/2026, 20:51 - Elizabeth:

Yes, Jake does the writing in the project. I guess if I were to insert myself into the process somewhere, it would be maybe by the time we get to set to shoot the videos, we will somewhat brainstorm together on what it looks like, you know, like crying on my lunch break. I really pictured somebody sitting in their car in the parking lot. It can be as simple as that. Maybe a stretch for me.

13/05/2026, 20:52 - Finbarre:

Jake, just to expand that further, I understand that you and Elizabeth met however long ago it was, working in the same bar. Is there something about the, I don’t know, the monotony, the mechanical action of preparing food, serving drinks, the creation of something you can eat? Is that related to it at all?

13/05/2026, 20:53 - Finbarre: I ask as there is a viscerality to your work that plays on desire and disgust. Maybe that’s just me.

13/05/2026, 20:54 - Jake:

I really wouldn’t think so other than I think I might just get ideas about how to comment about mundane things in a colorful way whilst doing a mundane activity. Although I do enjoy cooking quite a bit. So to call it mundane is is inaccurate because I really actually like cooking and I like bartending, too.

But I think that there’s probably some, yes, connection between the the whatever boredom might come from doing something like that and getting creative ideas from it.

13/05/2026, 20:55 - Finbarre: I feel like I may have accidentally projected my own kitchen feelings - I’m a cleanup goblin, my wife is the fantabulous cook!

13/05/2026, 20:55 - Jake: Ha we’re the opposite in my household

13/05/2026, 20:55 - Jake: Where are you in the UK?

13/05/2026, 20:56 - Finbarre:

Now, I’ve got the pleasure of living in a place called Beeston, which is a leafy suburb just outside of Nottingham. And it’s a place mainly of charity shops or thrift stores, as you call them, cafes. It’s all very hipster and it’s a good place to be. It’s very friendly.

And of course, you’ll know Nottingham from the Robin Hood legends, possibly because we had a cheese riot here in, I think it was the 17th century, where there was unfortunately a riot over food, like something from the Hunger Games. But the mayor of Nottingham got knocked flying by a stray wheel of cheese. And it’s something we celebrate every year.

13/05/2026, 20:57 - Finbarre: How about you two?

13/05/2026, 20:57 - Elizabeth: That sounds lovely! Surprisingly not familiar with the cheese riots lol

13/05/2026, 20:59 - Elizabeth:

I split my time between Toronto and Brooklyn, although I am more so in Toronto these days.

I’m Canadian originally, and my partner lives here, so I’ve been spending more time on this side of the border, but still go to New York very often.

I sublet my apartment in Brooklyn so I can go back fairly often, and that’s where we meet up and shoot and leave for tour and stuff like that.

13/05/2026, 21:00 - Jake:

Right. We met, as we already discussed, we met in Brooklyn. I don’t know if we actually discussed it. Maybe we didn’t discuss it, but we met at the bar. The bar was in Brooklyn.

And we lived in Brooklyn for quite some time together, and then we both moved away.

And now the only person left in Brooklyn is Steve and part-time Elizabeth, but much less of the time than she is in Toronto, which is also a wonderful city to do business from.

13/05/2026, 21:01 - Finbarre:

A quick question for Elizabeth, because I’ve never had the pleasure of going across the ocean to either the US or Canada.

And to be honest, I probably won’t be going to the US for a little while unless I bring a burner phone.

But in Canada, you have such wonderful, spectacular scenery. It looks like Scotland on steroids.

Which place should I go to first that would make me go, wow, assuming that there is somewhere?

13/05/2026, 21:03 - Elizabeth:

Oh, man. Okay. You got to get over here. You got to get over to Canada, at least.

Yes. I mean, it’s just bloody massive, isn’t it? So a lot of different parts of it look very

different. But if you were going to start somewhere, I’m biased to the Rocky Mountains.

So I would say you’ll want to check out Banff, Canmore, Lake Louise. Calgary is the closest major city in that area, which is where I was born. I’ve heard it’s gotten a lot cooler.

So I can’t say I would necessarily recommend going to Calgary, but you might as well pass through.

And then everyone’s going to tell you to go to Vancouver, but it’s a wasted trip if you do not also go to Vancouver Island, which is also massive. There’s a little town called Nanaimo there.

That’s where I went to college. And Victoria is absolutely gorgeous. I will say I have not spent time in the most eastern part of Canada. So I haven’t been to Halifax, Prince Edward Island, those places, which I think are probably even more stunning. But I can’t speak to those ones just yet.

13/05/2026, 21:03 - Elizabeth: Jake loves it when I talk about Nanaimo

13/05/2026, 21:05 - Finbarre: When you mentioned Bamf (spelling?) the only time I have ever heard that noise before was this. Now I have The X-Men theme tune in my head.

13/05/2026, 21:05 - Elizabeth: Banff! 🤝

13/05/2026, 21:06 - Finbarre: I’m digressing wildly and we’re here for tarot! Next card! The Wild one no less.

13/05/2026, 21:06 - Finbarre: Who is going to pick?

13/05/2026, 21:07 - Elizabeth: I will! Shall I use the virtual deck?

13/05/2026, 21:07 - Elizabeth:

13/05/2026, 21:09 - Finbarre:

Oh, now that is strange. And you’ve managed to spook me out, which is an achievement. That particular card is one that I use as a calling card for events. And very soon I’ll be going to, there’s a university called Goldsmiths in the UK, where I’ll be giving a talk on tarot. And this is the card that I picked to represent me. So yes, I’m very familiar with this one.

The Three of Pentacles probably sounds a little abstract. What are you seeing here, Jake? I mean, if you were to just look at the particular people involved, their expressions, what would you take from this? I’m quite curious for somebody who was just being introduced to tarot and what they would see.

13/05/2026, 21:09 - Elizabeth: Woahhh cool!

13/05/2026, 21:10 - Jake:

Well, I love pentagrams, or I call them pentagrams. I don’t know if that’s a Britishism. Pentacles. I’ve never heard pentacles before. As you probably know, it’s a very, very old symbol, very ancient symbol. It’s been around for thousands and thousands of years.

Yeah, I mean, so there’s three of them. What does that mean to me? I don’t know. I’d probably have to think about it for a really long time. I’m not a person that looks at something and then immediately comes to a conclusion about it. So I’m very bad at this game so far. But I do love pentagrams. Let me say that.

13/05/2026, 21:11 - Elizabeth: Negative affirmations there Jakester

13/05/2026, 21:12 - Jake: DON”T USE YOUR WOO WOO TALK ON ME ELIZABETH

13/05/2026, 21:13 - Finbarre: I have a Fun Finbarre Fact about pentagrams you might like Jake - I only discovered recently that you get them in Unicode and EVEN the bad one. Look! ⛧ I have no idea what the code is of it, but if you ever need it for mischief, just copy/paste it from here

13/05/2026, 21:14 - Finbarre: CURSE YOUR FRIENDS!

13/05/2026, 21:14 - Elizabeth: Amazing

13/05/2026, 21:14 - Jake: Oh nice!

13/05/2026, 21:15 - Finbarre:

Okay, so the Three of Pentacles, it’s the card of craft and collaboration and community.

And that lovely, quaint, old-fashioned idea of building things properly and working with others.

It’s a card of teamwork, one of planning, shared expertise, and listening to the people who bring different strengths.

So it’s a card of patience and feedback and commitment. It’s not a particularly sexy card, but it’s bloody useful. So yes, it’s one of shared effort and recognition.

13/05/2026, 21:16 - Finbarre:

Okay, so your credits include collaborators such as John Brookhouse and Exploding Sun. And Steve, hi Steve, has become part of your mythology. So how do these collaborators change your projects and the architecture of your work?

13/05/2026, 21:17 - Jake:

Well, Steve changes the visual side pretty extremely. He is just very important to the way things look.

Also behind the scenes, he does a lot of stuff behind the scenes as well. He helps sort of light the sets and direct and does all sorts of important things to the look of things. And then in front of the camera, he’s really something.

We love him.

And I’ve never really seen anybody do interpret music quite the way that Steve does. So he’s really special to us that way.

13/05/2026, 21:18 - Jake:

John Brookhouse is an excellent guitar player. He’s played a few solo. He’s not really heavily involved with us, but he, you know, he always, whenever I ask him to play a solo for us, he really changes the song to something that just has an extra spark to it. And we really appreciate that about him.

Exploding Sun, same thing, you know, especially because he sings in Spanish. It’s just a whole other universe that you’re suddenly sucked into, which I’m really into. I really like when something just completely changes to the point where it’s almost like you’ve switched the channel. So, yeah, he’s great.

13/05/2026, 21:18 - Finbarre: “Quite the way Steve does” - is there a story here that everyone simply must hear?

13/05/2026, 21:19 - Finbarre: *cocks ear*

13/05/2026, 21:20 - Elizabeth:

Not a particular story about Steve, but I think it’s important to note that we did meet him at the same bar where Jake and I met.

And I were bartending, Steve was a, you know, he lived nearby. He was in the same kind of circle of like cool creative people who frequented that bar and it wasn’t exactly like a dancing bar, but Steve would, you know, be like the catalyst for impromptu dance parties at the bar.

13/05/2026, 21:22 - Finbarre:

So this, but Steve?

13/05/2026, 21:22 - Elizabeth: Exactly

13/05/2026, 21:25 - Finbarre: Fab! Right, into the last card and this is from the author Adrian Tchaikovsky, the writer behind The Children of Time series and he wanted to pass on....

13/05/2026, 21:25 - Finbarre:

13/05/2026, 21:26 - Jake: Omg

13/05/2026, 21:26 - Jake: I can hear stairway to heaven playing

13/05/2026, 21:26 - Finbarre: Adrian’s had a mantis on and was far cooler, but you get the idea. This is basically my Halloween outfit every year here.

13/05/2026, 21:27 - Finbarre: This one is a card of privacy, maturity, and the search for meaning. I also lost one of these in a bar as it happens and he got stuck in a vent. Apt for a hermit.

13/05/2026, 21:29 - Jake:

This is the gatefold of Led Zeppelin 4 if you guys don’t already know that

13/05/2026, 21:30 - Finbarre:

Somehow through all of that nonsense, we’ve arrived at the last card. I had not seen the album cover, Jake. I feel like given the fact that I’m a little bit into tarot cards that I should probably like Prog more! But no, I’ve not seen that. Thank you so much. And yes, of course, I know the song. Everyone knows that one ;)

All right. So we’ve got the Hermit card. The songs that you’ve made like Mood Pills, I’m Not In Right Now and Muffins, which is a great name, deal with isolation in different ways. How do they represent your loneliness? Because you sound like you are working in bars, traveling so much, being on tour. It sounds like you’re always surrounded by other people.

13/05/2026, 21:32 - Jake:

That’s you’ve actually stumped me there. I don’t I don’t really know. I mean, I a lot of times when I’m writing lyrics, I don’t exactly know why I’m saying what I’m saying. And I don’t figure it out until later. But I would also point out that just because you are around other people doesn’t mean you’re not lonely, which I know you probably know. But I just that that would be probably the first thing that comes to mind to answer that question.

Yeah, I don’t know. It’s it’s the sort of isolation that I often feel, especially for some reason that does seem to be at the forefront of my mind when I’m writing, even though I don’t I wouldn’t call myself an especially lonely person. But for some reason, that is just something that moves me to talk about. It’s in there. And I just I don’t know why. But for some reason, that’s one of the things that is at the forefront of my mind when I’m trying to think about what to talk about. Or I shouldn’t even say try to think about. it usually just comes to me without having to think about it at all.

13/05/2026, 21:36 - Finbarre: How about you Elizabeth, what is like to bring that energy to a packed venue?

13/05/2026, 21:42 - Elizabeth:

We have had the pleasure of playing a couple of really decently attended shows lately. Jake probably won’t like the way I worded that. But we played in Denver on New Year’s Eve, for example, to like a packed theater that was really lovely.

And I think what I noticed in these shows where we have had more bodies in the room is like they really do seem to connect to those lyrics that are a bit like about being lonely or feeling out of place or just like not fitting in.

And I think a lot of the quirkiness is really validating and like, oh, I’m not the only one who has these kind of weird thoughts or like this humor spin on it and things like that.

13/05/2026, 21:44 - Finbarre:

My wife came in when I was watching one of your live videos, and her question was, is that a gig, a cult, or a support group?

From what you’ve just said there, I think it’s just a little bit of all that.

13/05/2026, 21:44 - Jake: it’s all 3 yeah!

13/05/2026, 21:46 - Finbarre: Just before we find a gift card for the next guest - have any of your fans ever made you grin or connected with you in a way that made your day sparkle? Made you feel a little less Hermit-y that day?

13/05/2026, 21:48 - Elizabeth:

The first one that comes to mind for me is actually that same show in Denver, which was all ages, but that kind of like, you know, there was a couple kids there like with their parents and there was one 11 year old kid, like something like that. And they were a huge fan and their parents were like, yeah, they’re the one who this was completely their idea. And we just happened to be here to tag along. And now we’re fans as well.

That was really cool because it’s just not the typical demographic.

13/05/2026, 21:48 - Jake: yes I like that answer

13/05/2026, 21:48 - Finbarre: Was that the gig where you were all wearing white and Steve was bopping like a fiend?

13/05/2026, 21:49 - Jake: we always wear all white

13/05/2026, 21:49 - Jake: and Steve is always bopping around like a fiend

13/05/2026, 21:49 - Jake: so yes

13/05/2026, 21:51 - Finbarre:

Yeah, he does exude that kind of Tigger meets Kung Fu Master energy.

Right, this is the time for you to reach into the cosmos, pluck out a card that you’d like to hand on to the next person, or conjure it up in your mind, and I’ll need two.

So I may have two people that I speak to, or it may be two sides of the same question that will be handed on to the next person.

I don’t know what I’ll do if you both think of the same thing, but let’s find out.

So, Jake and Elizabeth, what are your two cards that we’re going to hand on?

13/05/2026, 21:52 - Jake: mine is the Six of Swords

13/05/2026, 21:52 - Elizabeth:

13/05/2026, 21:52 - Jake: omg

13/05/2026, 21:53 - Finbarre:

What was that exclamation of surprise there, Jake?

13/05/2026, 21:54 - Jake: oh because there’s a tv show in the US

13/05/2026, 21:55 - Finbarre:

Now, I’ve never educated myself into watching the Wheel of Fortune from the US.

I’m thinking if you gave it a SVHS filter, a little bit of distortion, that sounds like something that will come from one of your videos.

13/05/2026, 21:55 - Jake: it looks like there’s a version of it in the UK hosted by Graham Norton

13/05/2026, 21:56 - Finbarre: LOVE THAT MAN! Such amazing suits!

13/05/2026, 21:57 - Jake: lol yeah

13/05/2026, 21:57 - Finbarre:

Going back to your two chosen cards there, Jake and Elizabeth, you’ve got the Six of Swords, which is that card of transition, recovery, of fleeing difficulty. It can be one of emotional turbulence. It could be one of distance. It could be leaving difficulty behind.

But then you’ve got this whole arc, this satisfying journey from one to another because the Wheel of Fortune is about timing, change, shifting events, opportunity and fortune. So I’d love to hear what somebody’s got to say about that. Thank you so much for those two.

And speaking of new beginnings and the Ace of Wands that we had previously, you mentioned your tour. Tell me all about it before you go. Where are you going to next? What are you looking forward to doing?

13/05/2026, 22:04 - Jake:

We are going first to the Midwest of the US obviously. We actually might, we’re looking into coming to the UK also. But that’s probably a fair way off maybe by the end of the year.

And then we’re basically going, I think back to the Midwest again and Canada, and then we’re going to Canada, you know, specifically and let’s see.

And then… oh, then the Northeast.

There’s just a lot. We’re very excited about it. We’re always excited to play for people. And it’s been especially fun lately. So we can’t wait to meet everybody. And, and yeah, thanks so much for, for doing this with us. We really had a fun time.

This is the first time I’ve never actually been able to listen to my answers to things in real time. So it’s pretty interesting.

13/05/2026, 22:08 - Finbarre:

Thank you so much, Jake and Elizabeth, for appearing on Tarot DMs.

If you are ever in the UK doing a show, give me a shout and I’ll be there like a shot.

That was the Dream Eaters, a conversation about making pain funny, making pop music strange, and how beautiful Canada is.

I’m going to have to visit.

So, you can find the Dream Eaters on Bandcamp, the streaming platform of your choice, and wherever the videos are currently haunting the algorithm.

As always, thank you for listening to Tarot DMs with Finbarre, and I’ll see you next time, lovely people. Take care.

Find more guests on Tarot DMs

Adrian Tchaikovsky is a British science-fiction and fantasy writer known for a wide variety of work including the Children of Time, Final Architecture, Dogs of War, Tyrant Philosophers and Shadows of the Apt series, as well as standalone books such as Shroud, Alien Clay, Service Model and many others. Children of Time and its series has won the Arthur C Clarke and BSFA awards, and his other works have won the British Fantasy, British Science Fiction and Sidewise Awards.

Find Adrian at adriantchaikovsky.com

30/04/2026, 16:09 - Finbarre:

Today’s Tarot DMs chat by Finbarre Snarey is with Adrian Tchaikovsky.

Adrian is one of the most distinctive voices in contemporary science fiction and fantasy. The author of the Shadows of the Apt series, the Final Architecture trilogy, Alien Clay, Service Model, Shroud, and the celebrated Children of Time sequence, which won the Arthur C. Clarke Award, the best science fiction novel.

His writing output can only be described as prolific.

Born in Lincolnshire, Adrian studied psychology, zoology, and ended up in law. Adrian’s fiction asks some of the biggest speculative fiction questions you can ask.

What is intelligence? What is civilization? What do humans fail to see in other forms of life?

So today, we’re going to let the Tarot open the 78 doors to Adrian’s imagination. Thank you for appearing on Tarot DMs.

30/04/2026, 16:11 - Adrian Tchaikovsky:

You’re very welcome!

30/04/2026, 16:11 - Finbarre:

Now, Adrian, before we get started with the cards, I need to ask, what is your experience with tarot?

30/04/2026, 16:12 - Adrian Tchaikovsky:

I’ve not really had much actual experience with tarot as it’s usually used. I’m kind of fascinated with the tarot card archetypes. I own a number of decks, mostly because I just sort of like the art. And also, bizarrely enough, it seems to be a very fashionable dice alternative for a lot of recent role-playing games. I’ve seen it used in a variety of ways in that kind of sphere.

30/04/2026, 16:14 - Finbarre:

These are the ones we’ll be spending time with today, the classic Rider Waite Smith ones from 1909 and my very favourite edition.

30/04/2026, 16:14 - Adrian Tchaikovsky: Very nice. Probably more faithful to the concept than the insect one I got a year ago :)

30/04/2026, 16:15 - Finbarre: YOU GOT AN INSECT ONE? I know what my wife is getting for Christmas this year, that sounds incredible!

30/04/2026, 16:18 - Finbarre: Speaking of archetypes before we start drawing cards out, when you’re playing an RPG - which is your goto class in Dungeons and Dragons? A warlock perhaps? Bard maybe?

30/04/2026, 16:18 - Adrian Tchaikovsky: Ranger or druid - anything that has a pet or can shapechange

30/04/2026, 16:20 - Finbarre: My daughter’s favourite play style there. Anything that involves having a honking great pet spider following you around!

Right, time for your first card. This is the Anchor card and the same one that everyone will be receiving in the month of May. You get the…

30/04/2026, 16:20 - Finbarre:

30/04/2026, 16:20 - Finbarre:

Adrian, what are your first impressions or vibes from this card?

30/04/2026, 16:21 - Adrian Tchaikovsky:

That’s an interesting one. So obviously very wizardish, although I suppose given wand, that’s fairly natural. Green shoots coming from the branch, so an association with nature. But I think the big thing is the idea of the hand with the wand coming in from somewhere else. So I’m kind of seeing the smoke clouds there as a portal, I suppose.

So yeah, if you wanted to look at it in a world building perspective, I suppose that’s almost given the landscape below, maybe that’s the act of world building.

30/04/2026, 16:24 - Finbarre:

One of the things I love about tarot is hearing other people’s interpretations. And the idea of this entity reaching out from another realm is one that’s going to stay with me for that card. To me, it reminds me that out in the garden, not a couple of hours ago, I was basically painting walking sticks. My ankle took a bit of a turn, I say a bit of a turn, completely broke it in January.

So now that my foot is all fixed up, I’m trying to find a different cane or stick to go with every waistcoat I own. But anyway, the traditional meaning of this is very similar to what you’ve said. It’s the idea of a card telling you something that is animated by beginnings. It’s the start of a project or a performance or relationship, personal reinvention.

And something I love about the Ace of Wands is it’s a card about what lights you up. I picked this one because, you know, it reminds me of the fire you would have in Beltane. It is the maypole.

Okay, so from that, I would ask on the theme of spark. What is the first world building spark for you? Animal behavior, scientific ideas, political and ease, game concept, a voice, an image. Tell me about those.

30/04/2026, 16:27 - Adrian Tchaikovsky:

So this is very project specific, really. The category of thing is always, what if there was a world where...

So there’s always some sort of big idea that I start with, which might, you know, what if there was a world where you had spiders evolved as the dominant species, is the obvious one for Children of Time.

Or what if the world where everyone was a shape changer for The Tiger and the Wolf, say.

It doesn’t really matter for the process what that initial idea is, because the process is then you work out from it with the logical consequences of that, on how that would change everything in the world.

I’m much more interested in a concept where that what if idea is shot through the setting as a whole, is something that touches everyone, rather than say, you know, what if there was magic, but nobody knew about it, and there was just this secret group of people who did magic.

I much more prefer, what if everyone could do a certain thing, or magic of a certain type was just freely available, and how does that change everything else?

30/04/2026, 16:31 - Finbarre:

Thinking about your world building, I’m going to use Children of Time because, well, A, it’s my second favourite science fiction book ever written, just after E.M. Forster’s The Machine Stops. And it involves so many different variables, so many levels of story. So you have a world which has scarcity of particular resources. You have different times, different species, different sociological constructs, different politics. And in this you have people with different jobs, different wants and loves and aspirations, fears… all of that together.

When do you know when to stop building the world and start writing?

30/04/2026, 16:33 - Adrian Tchaikovsky:

I get asked this a lot, and I think it’s just a sort of gut feeling thing. There’s no hard and fast rule. Usually by the time you do get to that point, you’ve sort of over created anyway, so that there’s more groundwork you’ve done than will end up going into the book, which I think is the best way to do it.

A lot of the stuff that isn’t explicitly put in is still sort of implicit in other things you’re writing, so you’re giving yourself a bit of redundancy, a bit of expansion room, and theoretically somewhere to go with the sequel, I suppose.

But yeah, generally, I mean, the amount of work will also depend on the sort of book I’m writing. If I’m doing a very detailed kind of lots of factions and groups and sort of fantasy city thing like City of Last Chances, that has a lot of work in it because it’s involving a group of people who have been in a place for a long time, have a lot of pre-existing associations and a lot of common understandings, all of which sort of need to be inherent on the page.

Other books where it’s potentially more of a travelogue, I might do a little less for each individual area because you’ll only be passing through relatively quickly. But you get to a point where you think, right, that’s ready to go. And it’s hard to point to any particular sort of quantitative element of it that tells you that. It’s just how you feel about it. And you don’t always get it right. It’s worth knowing sometimes you have to go back and do a bit more. Sometimes you find you’ve done way more than you need.

30/04/2026, 16:36 - Finbarre:

While I was out in Beeston at the Pudding Pantry with my wife, we were trying to do the maths of how many characters you must have written about.

And considering that you have, I mean, I’ve seen guesses that you’ve written over 60 published books, probably far more than that, trying to work out how many people you have sprung into being in these worlds.

Do you keep some kind of database, spreadsheet, and keeping track of every single individual living soul must be quite the task?

Where do they all come from?

30/04/2026, 16:39 - Adrian Tchaikovsky:

Ah… I mean I certainly don’t keep a a database it feels like they’re probably allowed a million in the Shadows Of The Apt of books alone these days I tend to rely very heavily on my own sort of dramatis personae for individual books so I create those as I go along and so as new characters enter the narrative I add them in and then if I am doing something in the same world at least I’ve got something easy to refer to.

I suspect that you could probably analyze my body of characters and start putting them into buckets fairly easily I know I have archetypes I tend to tend to return to and just, you know, give different spins on but you can certainly see that there are characters who are sort of related in the way that the narrative treats them and in the way that they are sort of personalities work.

I certainly know I have particular villain archetypes I tend to run through particularly down to whether i like the villain or not which tends to indicate the sort of fate they’re going to receive at the end of the book.

So yeah, I mean, I think this is one thing you get from coming from a Games Mastering sort of history and role-playing games honestly is the ability to put out an awful lot of characters and embody each one of them and give them each one sort of a personal spin. Make them all distinct but still have, quite a lot you know, quite a large number of them even in a single book and if you’ve done the world building work properly then if you need to just pull another character out… they come kind of complete with a background and a place that they fit into the world so that you’ve got a bit of a head start on presenting them.

30/04/2026, 16:42 - Finbarre:

Thank you for those, Adrian. We’ve got so many fabulous answers just from the first card alone.

And it’s time for the second one. This is the Wild card. This can be anything.

Of course, it’s not the first card you received, which was the Ace of Wands.

You won’t be receiving the last card that’s been picked for you, but it could be anything else.

I’m going to shuffle the deck, and I’d like you to either say stop or write stop, and we’ll see which card it is.

30/04/2026, 16:43 - Adrian Tchaikovsky:

Stop!

30/04/2026, 16:44 - Finbarre: The suave and slightly sly

30/04/2026, 16:44 - Finbarre:

30/04/2026, 16:45 - Finbarre:

Does this card look familiar or relevant to any of your projects at the moment?

30/04/2026, 16:46 - Adrian Tchaikovsky:

I guess what this looks to me is theatrical in that I guess there’s a certain amount of the outfit worn by the character being that way that what the Middle Ages didn’t look like, but is sort of represented in a certain period of photography and art and on the stage.

And the texture work on the doublet or tunic makes it look very much like sort of string chain mail, if you know what I mean, in which case it does kind of connect with Grave of Perfection, which is the fifth and last main Tyrant Philosopher’s book, which I just basically got off to the publisher.

One of the elements there is the theatre scene in occupied Ilmar and its constant battle with the centre of the Palleseen. One of the main characters is a playwright who is given a peculiar commission to fulfil. So I guess that’s what it links to my own work with.

30/04/2026, 16:50 - Finbarre:

My goodness, you’re absolutely right. There is an operatic element to this card, one that normally indicates a sharp mind and a lively conversational presence.

So, yeah, that touch of showmanship and theatricality is integral to this.

Okay, the kind of question that the Page of Swords would ask is, which of your ideas has been the most impatient to be expressed?

30/04/2026, 16:53 - Adrian Tchaikovsky:

I’m going to talk about, I guess, about a project that is currently not even being teased.

Normally, when I’m writing these days, I’m writing to contract in that, so Pan Macmillan will say, you know, we’ll have a contract which is this many books, and then that will kind of go onto the docket, and I’ll work through them, usually to get out one a year. And I’m currently working with sufficient different publishers that their various requirements pretty much fill my time.

Last year, there was a novella idea I came up with that I saw, all right, that’s really nice, that’s really good. I’m going to just write that completely off the bat, and then see if I can place it with somewhere, which, you know, we’re currently in negotiations. And it was my wife, who is a musician, a singer, has been asking me for a while to do a fantasy book about where the magic is also music, which is something that various writers have visited from time to time.

That kicked around in my head for quite a while without, and I had a number of false starts without really finding where I wanted to take it. And then I had a series of just ideas one after another that I jotted down in my ideas folder. And then within about a month, I was writing the novella, because it was just very, it felt very different. And it also felt as though it belonged in a kind of a part of the fantasy landscape I hadn’t particularly written, written before. Yeah, no, just fun to do. And I’ve got to say, it is sometimes just fun to strike out and get away from the things that you have been obsessing over and just do something completely fresh.

30/04/2026, 16:56 - Finbarre:

Adrian, I could hear the smile in your voice as you described that project. Out of interest, how many hours in the day do you devote to writing?

30/04/2026, 16:57 - Adrian Tchaikovsky:

It tends to vary. I’m usually writing for a chunk of them each morning. I tend to write to the beat, which is either to a chapter end or to some significant point within the chapter. I guess, say, two to three hours of actual writing, and then obviously whatever else is on the slab for editing and admin and so forth in the afternoon.

30/04/2026, 17:01 - Finbarre:

We have hopped from the Ace of Wands, we have skipped from the Page of Swords, and now we’re going to jump into the Gift card.

Now, Adrian, this has been picked for you by Elspeth Wilson, who was the author of These Mortal Bodies, and she had a particular card that she wanted to give you.

30/04/2026, 17:01 - Finbarre:

We like The Moon!

30/04/2026, 17:03 - Finbarre:

Now, Adrian, if you’re old enough to remember Defenders of the Earth, this one would be Mandrake the Magician, the Master of Illusion. It’s that card of, you know, the Freudian subconscious. It’s instinct, dreams, unseen forces. And it’s a card that often says that you could be mislead by appearances. It doesn’t give straight answers. It’s a card that tells you to move carefully and to allow whatever it is to become visible over time.

So, Adrian, my last question to you is about your alien worlds that are often dark, uncertain, certainly not comfortably knowable. How do you decide what should remain mysterious to the reader?

30/04/2026, 17:07 - Adrian Tchaikovsky:

Firstly, I should say thank you for the card with the lobster on it, which obviously feels like it’s on brand! Yeah, mystery and information. This is honestly one of the, I mean, I think it’s one of the biggest parts of writing long form narrative fiction, especially.

But in genre fiction in particular, in horror, sci-fi, fantasy, where you are frequently dealing with people encountering the unknown, at what point and to what extent do you explain what’s going on? It does vary from book to book. Again, there are certainly books I’m very comfortable not explaining things. And there are other books where in order for the book to have an impact, you kind of do need to explain in some considerable detail how everything works and what’s going on.

Because the point of the book is that you’re writing about a thing that could conceivably be real. And this is the Children Of Time category. If it had been just like magic hand wavy talking spiders, it wouldn’t have had the same resonance with readers, I think, as it has with me walking you through the science of it. And so, yeah, there is no mystery in why the spiders are there and how they are. Whereas if I’m writing in a more fantastical mode, or when I’m writing, say, with Alien Clay, there’s a lot of alien stuff.

The world of Alien Clay, which is not explicitly understood because the characters never discover it and it’s a first-person narrative. And that’s kind of exactly what that book needs. So you set the slider, really, on a given project as to how much you are going to say.

There are benefits to explicit revelation and there are benefits to leaving people wondering. And it’s very much the recipe between those two that you’re cooking up as to precisely where the slider goes with any one book. It is genuinely quite a high-end part of the writing toolkit, deciding what you’re going to reveal. And then, of course, you need to work out, well, how are you going to reveal it? And at what point did it turn up? That feels like it is almost 40% to 50% of the art of writing a book is just governing that information.

30/04/2026, 17:11 - Finbarre: Now is your chance Adrian to pass the Guest card to the next creative on Tarot DMs. Do you have a deck to hand or a card that has been in your thoughts recently? If so share it here and I’ll be passing it on.

30/04/2026, 17:16 - Adrian Tchaikovsky:

30/04/2026, 17:16 - Adrian Tchaikovsky: There we go

30/04/2026, 17:16 - Finbarre: WOW, that’s a stunning Hermit!

30/04/2026, 17:17 - Adrian Tchaikovsky: It’s a nice set - just “the bug tarot”

30/04/2026, 17:17 - Adrian Tchaikovsky: by Selby Burke

30/04/2026, 17:17 - Finbarre: I recently saw a video of a Praying Mantis in the “come at me bro” fighting stance and it was the funniest dancing I have seen in a long time.

30/04/2026, 17:18 - Finbarre: Oh, and one last thing Adrian - my kids are heading off on a camping trip this weekend with the scouts and the toys they are taking were named after two of your characters - Paul and Salome!

30/04/2026, 17:18 - Finbarre:

30/04/2026, 17:18 - Adrian Tchaikovsky: Awesome :)

30/04/2026, 17:19 - Finbarre:

Adrian, thank you so much for joining me on this Tarot DMs chat.

Your work has given readers sentient spiders, engineered soldiers, alien ecologies, collapsing empires, bewildered machines, and some of the most compelling non-human perspectives in modern fiction.

Thank you again. This has been a remarkable tarot reading!

30/04/2026, 17:20 - Adrian Tchaikovsky: You’re very welcome!

Find more guests on Tarot DMs

Elspeth Wilson is the author of the debut novel These Mortal Bodies and the poetry pamphlet Too Hot to Sleep. In her spare time, she enjoys swimming, vegan food, and spending time with her rescue dog.

Find Elspeth at elspethwilson.co.uk

21/04/2026, 20:32 - Finbarre:

Welcome! I’m Finbarre Snarey and today’s guest is Elspeth Wilson, a writer and poet. Her debut novel, These Mortal Bodies reads like a tipsy waltz to a discordant orchestra into a glamorous and secretive world. As with all Tarot DMs conversations, the structure is simple. We draw three prompts from the tarot. We have an Anchor card shared across the month. We have a Wild card drawn in the moment. And we have the Gift card, which is passed forward from the previous guest. Elspeth. Thank you for joining me.

21/04/2026, 20:34 - Elspeth Wilson:

Hi, Finbarre. Oh, it’s so nice to be here. And I think that’s one of my favorite descriptions of my work ever. I love that. A tipsy waltz! Thank you so much. Yeah, I am, I’m really excited for this conversation. I’ve really enjoyed reading the interviews you’ve had with other guests. And I really like this style of talking.

It feels quite, yeah, quite cozy and non pressurized which is so nice. And it sort of feels like being together in a way, but in a way, yeah, that just feels a bit like less pressurized and more chill.

21/04/2026, 20:35 - Finbarre:

You are kind. Plus it means if I take my phone, I can walk over to the bay windows and see something of the gorgeous sunset that I have outside. So as it’s been a lovely day for me, tell me what you’ve been up to.

21/04/2026, 20:37 - Elspeth Wilson: I’m glad it’s been a lovely day with you! I have been hiking this morning (recently moved to France for my partner’s work) with my small rescue dog - one of the things I love most about being freelance is getting to try and follow my whims and energy a little more. I used to try fit my freelance life info a very rigid schedule but then I realised I was denying myself one of the pleasures that’s the upside to the instability! After that I did some writing and work in the evening

21/04/2026, 20:39 - Finbarre: Before we open the deck and explore the cards (we’re using The Golden Art Noveau Tarot today) I need to ask your opinion on a question that will task your creative powers to the maximum, dare you meet the challenge?

21/04/2026, 20:40 - Elspeth Wilson: I am ready 😎

21/04/2026, 20:40 - Finbarre: EXCELLENT

21/04/2026, 20:40 - Finbarre: Take a look at this...

21/04/2026, 20:40 - Finbarre:

21/04/2026, 20:41 - Finbarre:

Now what you can see there is my wife’s cello case. We have gone to great lengths, taken great pains to make the bedroom in our house finally look like adults live there. It looks really good, but we have unfortunately, nowhere to put this cello. It’s currently my bay window and it doesn’t have a home.

So what I need is a way of making it into a statement piece. I’m thinking maybe googly eyes a hat. Having a look at that picture, what would you do if you are in my, in my shoes or slippers as the case is?

21/04/2026, 20:44 - Elspeth Wilson:

Ooh. My immediate thought was could you drape it in something? Is there a nice piece of fabric that you have or something that maybe used to be a curtain or a tablecloth or even just Yeah, a piece of, a piece of fabric you have. Could you, could it be draped in that? I think it would almost give a slightly like ghostly presence in the corner, uh, like a figure was underneath it.

But the reason I thought of this is my aunt was a psychotherapist for many, many years and she ran her home practice from. From her living room and her H house is quite small, so she used to kind of drape things like her television when she wanted to, um, create, I suppose a bit of a mental divide both for her client, but probably more importantly for herself when she wanted to sort of be in a different mode.

And so she had her television covered in this really beautiful, um, multicolored I guess it was probably meant to be some sort of small blanket thing, but I always just knew it. As a little kid is something that, um, yeah. Covered the television. It would come off when she wanted to watch it, or, yeah, when she wanted to make her living room more living room-y again.

21/04/2026, 20:47 - Finbarre:

That is absolute genius. A draper of veer is I need to get some kind of sumptuous material, waft it over the top, and then feeling incredibly clever, go to sleep and then jump out of my bed. I will forget and I will think I’m being haunted. Speaking of things spooky, what is your, um, what’s your experience of the tarot?

Have you. I’ve got a deck yourself. Is it something you dabbled with at some point? Are you one of those people that you may get particular cards and you have strong feelings? I’d love to know more.

21/04/2026, 20:51 - Elspeth Wilson:

So I think my experience of tarot has often been that it’s come to my life as something of a gift. It’s often been friends who have had very beautiful tarot decks who’ve offered me readings either virtually or in person. And I think that has been something where. I’ve really appreciated it because it’s often been at junctures in my life where I’m thinking about things or asking myself questions.

So it’s both sort of provided reflection on that. And then also, felt like something quite intimate and special to share with that person. And you know, that they’ve offered me something, which I’m really appreciative of. So it sort of developed that relationship and felt really warm as well.

And then when I was writing my novel, These Mortal Bodies, which you mentioned, obviously I became sort of more interested in some of the... more traditional meanings, I suppose. So I did my, did my own research because I’ve always been quite interested in ta in tarot as a tool for creativity as a jumping off point or a prompt or however people want to take it.

But then I also realized my characters, it felt, especially with one of the characters that quite appropriate, it felt very hard that she would be interested in tarots. So I wrote her as someone who had these very beautiful decks that she’d inherited. And I asked friends to do some readings for my characters.

And then I did my own research about the traditional meanings.

21/04/2026, 20:54 - Finbarre:

I’m picturing that modern trend of the path of least resistance, where people will ask a large language model, various questions about things that they’re researching, but here you are using a analog AI consulting, the wisdom of the tarot to guide you in your story. I, I think that’s incredible. Okay. We have the deck just here, and of course the Anchor card.

For this month is The Fool, although I’m looking at my calendar, we don’t have many days left, so I’ll be showing you that card in a moment and I’d love to get a, a vibe check on what you see.

21/04/2026, 20:54 - Finbarre:

21/04/2026, 20:56 - Elspeth Wilson: I feel like this person looks so radiant! Like yes they’re a little bit in danger but they also look very blissful?! I love this card mostly for the dog though. My dog is absolutely the love of my life and I have always loved art that depicts human relationships with animals

21/04/2026, 20:58 - Finbarre: It could well be your hiking there. Or randonnée as the locals might say? (If I can still trust my GCSE French)

21/04/2026, 20:59 - Elspeth Wilson: Exactly! C’est ça 🥰

21/04/2026, 21:00 - Finbarre:

I am the fool when it comes to trying to speak that language. Right… The meaning of this particular card is someone who’s standing at the threshold of experience, which is a little bit like being in another country, I suppose, and you are unburdened by preconceptions, so it’s about a transformative step.

Your tarot question will be when you began writing seriously. What was your first act of trust in yourself?

21/04/2026, 21:01 - Elspeth Wilson:

That’s a lovely question and I also, yeah, I love that about the card because I think that’s kind of how I feel at the moment, just reflecting on, on the meaning of this month’s card because I’ve had so much sort of, of my brain in the kind of industry side of writing with my day becoming out last year and having to do a lot of events and author, admin and things, and now I feel like I’m really coming back to the writing. The creative side of things and trying to just come into that with this few, I guess, as little baggage as possible, and a sign of feeling re-energized and and joyful about it again.

21/04/2026, 21:02 - Elspeth Wilson: In terms of the first act of trust in myself, I think it was probably staying up late at night writing after work. It felt like staking my claim, saying this is important to me and I’m going to act accordingly and put it above other time commitments

21/04/2026, 21:03 - Finbarre: How late are we talking?

21/04/2026, 21:05 - Elspeth Wilson: Not super late - I need a lot of sleep haha. But I certainly remember writing in bed until about midnight. I also used to write in my email drafts all the time, sneaking in writing whenever I could at work or in meetings

21/04/2026, 21:07 - Finbarre:

I’m completely with you about needing lots of sleep. I think come nine o’clock or beyond, I probably lack the fine motor control to write at any length and the idea of gazing into a screen or just keep me awake. But having said that, as soon as my eyes are closed and I’m off into dreamland. I will come up with the maddest of storylines and it’s almost like an IMAX cinema going on between my ears and I wake up and poof, it’s gone.

Oh well. I will ask you about your four-legged friend after the second card, and I can’t wait ‘cause I normally go straight into asking about pets and I love the sound of your companion. We’ll leave that until just after the second card, which I’m about to draw for you. So what I’d like you to do is from whichever part of France you are in I don’t know it very well.

I’ve been to Brittany, which I love. It’s basically the west country with better food. Don’t like Paris. In fact, I would say that if I was in a, I don’t know, one of the circles of hell. It would probably be Paris probably watching a golf match whilst eating miso soup. So I’ll be drawing a card for you, completely distracted.

Think of whichever tarot card would be the most important to you, and we’ll see if we get it.

21/04/2026, 21:09 - Elspeth Wilson: Yes me too, I write poems in my head and I always tell myself I’ll remember them and then I never do!

21/04/2026, 21:11 - Finbarre:

Okay, let’s try this out. Yeah, I’ve just put the record button on lock and you can hear the cards. So here they go. Round and round. Lemme know when to stop.

21/04/2026, 21:11 - Elspeth Wilson: Stop!

21/04/2026, 21:12 - Finbarre:

21/04/2026, 21:12 - Finbarre: It is the...

21/04/2026, 21:12 - Finbarre: ...

21/04/2026, 21:12 - Finbarre: Interesting

21/04/2026, 21:13 - Finbarre: This rakish chap

21/04/2026, 21:13 - Finbarre:

21/04/2026, 21:13 - Elspeth Wilson: Oh he is very rakish!

21/04/2026, 21:15 - Finbarre:

Elspeth, your Wild card is the Page of Pentacles, which is a card of ambition, but it’s the early stages of that ambition. It’s when an idea becomes something that you can hold or measure or shape. So it’s dedication, it’s humility, and it’s understanding that mastery is something that you achieve through.

Repetition and attention, and however many times you need to do something to become a master.

21/04/2026, 21:15 - Finbarre:

So it’s development, not necessarily reward.

21/04/2026, 21:16 - Finbarre:

If the Page of Pentacles was to ask you a question, the sly fox that he is, he would probably raise an eyebrow and ask you what creative skills you’ve been exploring recently.

21/04/2026, 21:18 - Elspeth Wilson:

I love his expression in this card. Yeah, I think my creative skills recently have been that I’ve been exploring, have been around noticing and practicing, noticing I’m keeping a little, different notebooks except a lot of different notebooks. I have my notebook from my everyday journaling. I have a one-liner a day notebook.

I keep, I have a notebook I have just for writing workshops when I’m attending them. And I’ve started one just to write down some nature, some things I’ve noticed when I’m out, nature other animals, other species, other people, what they’re up to. So the practice of noticing and then I’m also really.

I’ve all, I’ve practiced yoga for over 10 years now. I did a yoga teacher training last year. But for various reasons at the start of this year, I haven’t been practicing yoga as much, so I’ve been coming back to that as a creative practice and, and dancing as well. So yeah, movement and noticing.

21/04/2026, 21:21 - Finbarre: Do you use different pens for the various notebooks out of interests? I ask as I’d swear I’m more expressive with some than with others!

21/04/2026, 21:22 - Elspeth Wilson: I am very picky about my pens! I think I have a really light touch or something because if I use a biro it barely even leaves a mark on the page?!

21/04/2026, 21:22 - Elspeth Wilson: So I always use this one:

21/04/2026, 21:23 - Elspeth Wilson:

21/04/2026, 21:23 - Elspeth Wilson: I have been using them since I was at university

21/04/2026, 21:24 - Finbarre: Oh GREAT CHOICE! I have one of those but I definitely didn’t buy it, might have swiped it from someone who stole yours

21/04/2026, 21:25 - Finbarre: My favourite is the classic Pilot G1 0.7mm which allows me to scribblyscrawl

21/04/2026, 21:25 - Finbarre:

21/04/2026, 21:26 - Finbarre:

Finbarre Snarey, what are you doing? You are here talking about pens when I want to know, and everyone else wants to know more about your dog. So first of all, what is the precious little pooch called? I’m assuming little pooch. It might be the size of a great dane, and could you show me a picture? I would love to see.

21/04/2026, 21:26 - Elspeth Wilson: Ooh I’ll need to check that out. I sort of feel a bit physically off if I write with the wrong kind of pen like a biro, like I have motion sickness in my hand

21:28 - Elspeth Wilson: This is Ginny in various poses!

21/04/2026, 21:29 - Elspeth Wilson: She is a rescue dog who was confiscated by the police in an animal cruelty case and now lives her best life hiking and getting pampered 🥰

21/04/2026, 21:30 - Finbarre: Getting fuss and scratches whilst rolling about in rooms with towers of books? Agreed!

21/04/2026, 21:31 - Elspeth Wilson: Absolutely! She loves fuss. We both share a little dramatic streak

21/04/2026, 21:32 - Finbarre:

Well, who doesn’t like lying on the floor? Spread out in a ta-da pose. Okay, card number three. We better move on. This card was given to you. Now this is the guest card by Alice Slater who is the writer of Let the Bad Times Roll, and this is the card that she picked.

21/04/2026, 21:32 - Finbarre:

21/04/2026, 21:34 - Elspeth Wilson: It’s absolutely a tah-dah pose!

21/04/2026, 21:34 - Elspeth Wilson: Thank you Alice!

21/04/2026, 21:34 - Finbarre:

It’s fascinating how well this follows on from the Page of Pentacles. This is a card of recognition following sustained effort, and it’s demonstrated resilience. It signals a, a milestone reached or favorable feedback, or the strengthening of a reputation. It’s putting in the hard yards.

21/04/2026, 21:35 - Finbarre:

You know that feeling when you’ve had a hell of a day and you arrive home and someone has either cooked for you or unexpectedly ordered a takeaway. It’s that feeling of being supported.

21/04/2026, 21:36 - Elspeth Wilson: May we all know that feeling of being supported

21/04/2026, 21:37 - Finbarre:

The Six of Wands would ask - what kind of recognition feels the most meaningful?

21/04/2026, 21:39 - Elspeth Wilson:

I think that’s such an important question as an artist and something that I’ve been pondering a lot. I was actually reading a lot of Substack today about the state of the publishing industry and how it’s so difficult at the moment, which in some ways is obviously really depressing and has really meaningful impacts on people’s livelihoods in terms of lower advances and publishers acquiring less. But in a way, I feel like the silver lining of that is that you might as well just write exactly what you want to write. ‘cause I mean, it’s always been that way, but the market is in such turmoil right now. And that’s something I’ve been thinking about a lot lately and thinking about, yeah, what, what kind of recognition matters And I think ultimately, it has to be your own, recognizing that you are doing what you want to do, that you’re writing what you want to write, that you are answering what calls your name. That obviously isn’t the recognition in the traditional sense of it, but I think that seeing someone recognize your work and meeting readers and having that conversation with them is so important, but…. you are the only person that you have to spend every second of your life with, right? And I think that’s true in all sorts of avenues of life, but I think it’s true in making art and writing as well. I think you want to look back and think, I did what I wanted to and followed what I wanted to follow. So I think there’s a kind of self recognition there that’s really important.

Everything else is a nice to have and I think getting recognition from readers, other readers, other writers is so lovely and, and that’s so important. But that comes from, I think, the recognition for yourself and what you want to do.

21/04/2026, 21:43 - Finbarre:

Following on Elspeth about what you were saying when it comes to other readers and other writers recognizing your work, what response have you either seen or heard from either of those two that surprised you the most?

21/04/2026, 21:46 - Elspeth Wilson:

I’ve been so lucky because other writers and other readers have both been super generous about these mortal bodies. And I think getting quotes through from other writers who enjoyed it was just, yeah, such a special experience. I think the thing that surprised me the most though, and again it just reminded me, which I suppose I already knew, but maybe hadn’t fully internalized, just how much, once you put something out there really becomes… something for other people to interpret and that what you intended might just be so odds with how they receive it, and that’s, that’s absolutely fine. But there’s a character, a particular character in These Mortal Bodies called George, who’s the main male character in the book. And the book overall is about. Many things. It really centers friendship at its heart, but it also is exploring femininity and the weaponization thereof. And I personally find George quite a sympathetic character. I think that he is viewed by some of the female characters as almost sort of one-dimensional because he embodies that kind of idea of upper class male privilege.

When you think about him at a human level, he’s quite sensitive and he’s sweet. Um, and without saying too much, I, yeah, I have a lot of empathy for him within the story, but I have definitely experienced both readers who are like, “I hate George”. And definitely kind of more have the character’s perspective on him and then also people who feel like he was written in a way, which is, sort of really anti-men, which is also was not my intention. But I just think those things are really curious. You know, like I think the good thing about publishing being slow is that there can be a bit of a sense of non-attachment to a work after the big gap between writing it and publishing. And I think in a way that’s helped me because yeah, when I have see those reactions now I have that feeling of, curious more than anything else.

21/04/2026, 21:51 - Finbarre:

I feel like George now needs to be brought into an expanded universe. Maybe a trilogy, maybe. Maybe a prequel containing his origin story. Yes, I’m being silly. We’ve done your three cards. We don’t have the Guest card to offer to the next person. Think of whichever card comes to you. Or even if it’s some stray symbolism, if it’s a card you’ve seen recently, if it’s just a general vibe, and tell me what that is.

21/04/2026, 21:53 - Elspeth Wilson: I have been thinking about a prequel for real though haha - I’d love to write more about the Saint Clair sisters, the characters from the historical subplot in the novel

21/04/2026, 21:54 - Elspeth Wilson:

The card. Sorry, I’m laughing because Ginny’s doing something silly in the background. But the card that has been on my mind has been The Moon because this is a card that I have seen often depicted with wolves. And I have been obviously spending a lot of time with with my own dog and I, yeah. It is just the one that’s, that comes straight to mind and the one that really, when I picture the cards, that’s the one that comes most clearly.

21/04/2026, 21:57 - Finbarre:

Oh, intriguing. The card of mystery and illusion. Also, sometimes mixed signals and that feeling of being swayed in emotional fog. I’ll be interested to see A, who gets that and B, what their response is. That’d be fascinating. Elspeth and the fabulously dramatic Ginny, who’s probably up to nonsense as I speak.

Thank you so much for spending your time with me and the cards, and for telling us about These Mortal Bodies… and we’ll get to find out who received The Moon In the next episode of Tarot DMs.

21/04/2026, 21:59 - Elspeth Wilson: What a lovely way to spend an evening in great company

21/04/2026, 21:59 - Elspeth Wilson: Ginny approved!